login   |    register
Dioramas
Do you love dioramas & vignettes? We sure do.
Operation Epsom,Normandy'44
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Member Since: April 10, 2011
entire network: 7,941 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Friday, September 27, 2019 - 01:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

You have grass dead right Jerry, take no notice! I've seen loads of photographs of this battle and that's just how it looks. Maybe the length hides the craters, I don't know, but that's just how it looks. I've also seen photos of Scottish Regiments being played up to the start lines of Epsom by pipers. But significantly they are wearing full BD, not kilts as in the "Scotland the Brave" set issued by was it Miniart?



Thanks for the support buddy!
I have seen those pics as well in the excellent book by Bernage on Epsom. Really great shots showing all the action before and during the Op,including the famous one of the munitions truck blowing up after a hit my 12SS mortars.
I had considered the bag piper but I think that may have occurred earlier than my scene here,as you said,when they moved up to the start line.
I would really love to include a piper somewhere in the upcoming sequence but also didn't want to get too full of "cliche" either?? On the other hand,it would be historically accurate and documented in period pics as well!
The quandary,the quandary.
J
Hohenstaufen
Visit this Community
England - South East, United Kingdom
Member Since: December 13, 2004
entire network: 2,192 Posts
KitMaker Network: 386 Posts
Posted: Thursday, September 26, 2019 - 10:59 AM UTC
You have grass dead right Jerry, take no notice! I've seen loads of photographs of this battle and that's just how it looks. Maybe the length hides the craters, I don't know, but that's just how it looks. I've also seen photos of Scottish Regiments being played up to the start lines of Epsom by pipers. But significantly they are wearing full BD, not kilts as in the "Scotland the Brave" set issued by was it Miniart?
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Member Since: April 10, 2011
entire network: 7,941 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Thursday, September 26, 2019 - 01:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Hi Jerry,
The painting of the figures and the atmosphere you create with it, is really top notch!
The painted fur, just looks like that, I'm affraid. In my opinion, it is too uniform, looking very artificial. Also, if they are advancing close behind a wall of artillery fire, wouldn't the terrain they advance through be churned by the impact of the shells



These are farmers' fields,wheat and the like. That crop does grow kind of uniform or at least,the wheat fields near me do. The craters here very very 6minimal,according to testimony from a member of the 12SS,who endured this battle. The fuses were set on point detonation,for maximum schrapnel effects on Infantry. I have been on ranges in Germany that were just used and the craters were non-existent. There were,in Normandy,other times that involved large craters from Naval guns and from aerial carpet bombing,etc.,but not here.
Thanks for your comments,
J



The most effective shelling of these kind of military units (weak, exposed bodies in an open field) would be done with time set fuses. They would explode approx. 50 - 30 meters above impact and create a fierce rain of hot, sharp shrapnel.
Any way, so far my input as an artyoff.
Remains to state (again) that mr. Rutman once again created a beautiful piece of modeling art.
Thanks for that, Sir!



Yes,you are correct for sure and as a redleg you would know best. I kinda wonder about that here though as the British were firing the 25 pounders,etc at a very high rate of fire,a few rounds per minute per gun and also after a lingering barrage on the German positions they shifted fire and began "walking" the barrage to the rear of those positions. I am wondering how effective the fuze setters could actually be given those circumstances? It had to be done manually with the fuze wrench as the pozit fuze didn't get out till around the BoB time period.
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Member Since: April 10, 2011
entire network: 7,941 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Thursday, September 26, 2019 - 01:37 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


These are farmers' fields,wheat and the like. That crop does grow kind of uniform or at least,the wheat fields near me do. The craters here very very minimal,according to testimony from a member of the 12SS,who endured this battle. The fuses were set on point detonation,for maximum schrapnel effects on Infantry. I have been on ranges in Germany that were just used and the craters were non-existent. There were,in Normandy,other times that involved large craters from Naval guns and from aerial carpet bombing,etc.,but not here.
Thanks for your comments,
J



Thanks for your reply. I was not aware of the limited impact on the terrain of the arty. A little more wisdom, for which I thank thee...



You had it partially correct,because there would be some marks on the ground,just no craters. The angle of my photos would not really show the marks If I were to make them,so I saved myself some work!
It's all good in the hood,
J
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Member Since: April 10, 2011
entire network: 7,941 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Thursday, September 26, 2019 - 01:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Just excellence again, me likes this! Always love the backstory.

Jerry, I've long wondered about adding smaller scale subjects into the background of dios.
ex: A 1/16 figure in the foreground followed by 1/35 figures or vehicles to the rear, or a 1/32 aircraft followed by 1/72 in the distance etc. I suppose a conflict could be in bringing everything into the correct, believable focus as one image.

This is awesome, I'll be following along whenever time permits some serious lurking.

Cheers
Dave



Great work, Jerry, as usual!

Have been fantasizing about a dio with forced perspective for a long time.

Finding the correct distance is a problem. I guess several layers with different scales make it easier to fool the eye. In terms of scales, you also have 1/48, 1/56 from the wargaming stuff, 1/87 railroad modelling stuff, some 1/100 from Zvezda and some 1/144 from various brands. Combining all these scales plus the ones mentioned should allow for some awesome views, even in a relatively confined space.

For the forced perspective to work well, I believe that two more things are important.
1) Use uneven ground so as to hide the transition from one layer to the next. I believe it's impossible to do a smooth transition from one scale to the next. The actual seem can further be hidden by bushes/trees.
2) Strictly apply the scale effect when painting the vehicles (and everything else), i.e. as it gets a smaller scale, the overall color hues should get lighter and have less contrast between each other.

Maybe one day I'll get around to trying all of this out. Or others do it for me




Yes yes! All good observations there. I agree with every one. I have been wanting to build a perspective project for a long long time and first thought about doing one with aircraft,specifically FW190s attacking a B17 head on,seen through the front glazing of the bomber. Hopefully I will still tackle that one day.
I have already worked out some of the issues you brought forward but am reluctant to post the progress because it may be in the book deal and so I am kinda constrained right now.
Thanks for your kind words and comments!
J
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Member Since: April 10, 2011
entire network: 7,941 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Thursday, September 26, 2019 - 01:29 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Grass is always greener eh? I guess a few longer stalks in the foreground would break it up a bit. My agricultural knowledge is below minimal but given normal farming schedules were somewhat disrupted on June 6th perhaps there’s an argument the fields wouldn’t have been as uniform as usual in the ensuing months? But Epsom started June 26th so the fields would have been nowhere near ready for harvesting anyway right?



You have the dates correct and the basic timeline concept as well with the crops. This is an experiment with creating a very large(for a dio anyway) field. I was looking for ways to do that without spending the whole months income on marketed grass mats,LoL.
I will try to put some odd longer wheat stalks in there,it's worth a shot. But a field like this does not get any"tending" as per your conjecture,they are just left to do what they do! They start green and then turn that wonderful golden color as they ripen.

Man o man,I am quite literally getting "down in the weeds" with this one! LoL
J
Paulinsibculo
Visit this Community
Overijssel, Netherlands
Member Since: July 01, 2010
entire network: 1,322 Posts
KitMaker Network: 74 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 - 09:35 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Hi Jerry,
The painting of the figures and the atmosphere you create with it, is really top notch!
The painted fur, just looks like that, I'm affraid. In my opinion, it is too uniform, looking very artificial. Also, if they are advancing close behind a wall of artillery fire, wouldn't the terrain they advance through be churned by the impact of the shells



These are farmers' fields,wheat and the like. That crop does grow kind of uniform or at least,the wheat fields near me do. The craters here very very 6minimal,according to testimony from a member of the 12SS,who endured this battle. The fuses were set on point detonation,for maximum schrapnel effects on Infantry. I have been on ranges in Germany that were just used and the craters were non-existent. There were,in Normandy,other times that involved large craters from Naval guns and from aerial carpet bombing,etc.,but not here.
Thanks for your comments,
J



The most effective shelling of these kind of military units (weak, exposed bodies in an open field) would be done with time set fuses. They would explode approx. 50 - 30 meters above impact and create a fierce rain of hot, sharp shrapnel.
Any way, so far my input as an artyoff.
Remains to state (again) that mr. Rutman once again created a beautiful piece of modeling art.
Thanks for that, Sir!
Golikell
Visit this Community
Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Member Since: October 25, 2002
entire network: 1,757 Posts
KitMaker Network: 126 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 - 09:18 PM UTC

Quoted Text


These are farmers' fields,wheat and the like. That crop does grow kind of uniform or at least,the wheat fields near me do. The craters here very very minimal,according to testimony from a member of the 12SS,who endured this battle. The fuses were set on point detonation,for maximum schrapnel effects on Infantry. I have been on ranges in Germany that were just used and the craters were non-existent. There were,in Normandy,other times that involved large craters from Naval guns and from aerial carpet bombing,etc.,but not here.
Thanks for your comments,
J



Thanks for your reply. I was not aware of the limited impact on the terrain of the arty. A little more wisdom, for which I thank thee...
Bonaparte84
Visit this Community
Hessen, Germany
Member Since: July 17, 2013
entire network: 338 Posts
KitMaker Network: 5 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 - 08:36 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Just excellence again, me likes this! Always love the backstory.

Jerry, I've long wondered about adding smaller scale subjects into the background of dios.
ex: A 1/16 figure in the foreground followed by 1/35 figures or vehicles to the rear, or a 1/32 aircraft followed by 1/72 in the distance etc. I suppose a conflict could be in bringing everything into the correct, believable focus as one image.

This is awesome, I'll be following along whenever time permits some serious lurking.

Cheers
Dave



Great work, Jerry, as usual!

Have been fantasizing about a dio with forced perspective for a long time.

Finding the correct distance is a problem. I guess several layers with different scales make it easier to fool the eye. In terms of scales, you also have 1/48, 1/56 from the wargaming stuff, 1/87 railroad modelling stuff, some 1/100 from Zvezda and some 1/144 from various brands. Combining all these scales plus the ones mentioned should allow for some awesome views, even in a relatively confined space.

For the forced perspective to work well, I believe that two more things are important.
1) Use uneven ground so as to hide the transition from one layer to the next. I believe it's impossible to do a smooth transition from one scale to the next. The actual seem can further be hidden by bushes/trees.
2) Strictly apply the scale effect when painting the vehicles (and everything else), i.e. as it gets a smaller scale, the overall color hues should get lighter and have less contrast between each other.

Maybe one day I'll get around to trying all of this out. Or others do it for me

Dioramartin
Visit this Community
New South Wales, Australia
Member Since: May 04, 2016
entire network: 1,476 Posts
KitMaker Network: 13 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 - 04:00 PM UTC
Grass is always greener eh? I guess a few longer stalks in the foreground would break it up a bit. My agricultural knowledge is below minimal but given normal farming schedules were somewhat disrupted on June 6th perhaps there’s an argument the fields wouldn’t have been as uniform as usual in the ensuing months? But Epsom started June 26th so the fields would have been nowhere near ready for harvesting anyway right?
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Member Since: April 10, 2011
entire network: 7,941 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 - 03:29 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Jerry,
The painting of the figures and the atmosphere you create with it, is really top notch!
The painted fur, just looks like that, I'm affraid. In my opinion, it is too uniform, looking very artificial. Also, if they are advancing close behind a wall of artillery fire, wouldn't the terrain they advance through be churned by the impact of the shells



These are farmers' fields,wheat and the like. That crop does grow kind of uniform or at least,the wheat fields near me do. The craters here very very minimal,according to testimony from a member of the 12SS,who endured this battle. The fuses were set on point detonation,for maximum schrapnel effects on Infantry. I have been on ranges in Germany that were just used and the craters were non-existent. There were,in Normandy,other times that involved large craters from Naval guns and from aerial carpet bombing,etc.,but not here.
Thanks for your comments,
J
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Member Since: April 10, 2011
entire network: 7,941 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 - 03:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Just excellence again, me likes this! Always love the backstory.

Jerry, I've long wondered about adding smaller scale subjects into the background of dios.
ex: A 1/16 figure in the foreground followed by 1/35 figures or vehicles to the rear, or a 1/32 aircraft followed by 1/72 in the distance etc. I suppose a conflict could be in bringing everything into the correct, believable focus as one image.

This is awesome, I'll be following along whenever time permits some serious lurking.

Cheers
Dave



Thanks for your very nice words Dave! Always appreciated.
Yeah,this idea here was brewing a long time and I have several dios underway with it in mind,like the Cromwell one. It can be tricky and I'm still ironing out the issues. But the potential is there.
J
Golikell
Visit this Community
Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Member Since: October 25, 2002
entire network: 1,757 Posts
KitMaker Network: 126 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 08:20 PM UTC
Hi Jerry,
The painting of the figures and the atmosphere you create with it, is really top notch!
The painted fur, just looks like that, I'm affraid. In my opinion, it is too uniform, looking very artificial. Also, if they are advancing close behind a wall of artillery fire, wouldn't the terrain they advance through be churned by the impact of the shells
strongarden
Visit this Community
Florida, United States
Member Since: May 14, 2012
entire network: 730 Posts
KitMaker Network: 3 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 03:21 PM UTC
Just excellence again, me likes this! Always love the backstory.

Jerry, I've long wondered about adding smaller scale subjects into the background of dios.
ex: A 1/16 figure in the foreground followed by 1/35 figures or vehicles to the rear, or a 1/32 aircraft followed by 1/72 in the distance etc. I suppose a conflict could be in bringing everything into the correct, believable focus as one image.

This is awesome, I'll be following along whenever time permits some serious lurking.

Cheers
Dave
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Member Since: April 10, 2011
entire network: 7,941 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Sunday, September 22, 2019 - 02:59 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Jerry, you've pulled it off again! Very nice figures. Where did the grass come from I want some! Operation Epsom led to the formation of the "Scottish Corridor". This pulled II SS Panzer Korps into the battle prematurely, the Germans had been hoping to keep these units in reserve for a major offensive of their own. Are you going to do a diorama of Hill 112? I'd really like to see your iteration of that. I love the way you are bringing in some of the forgotten battles of Normandy. Hill 112 was a real meat-grinder. I still can't understand why no one has ever made a film about it.



Hey man,thanks for the very nice comments and interest.
All this is for an upcoming book,hopefully in a series,about Normandy. This first one concerns Epsom and goes till Monty called it off on 30July. If this one is successful,I am torn between making the next about the fighting up till Epsom,IE Bretteville and Putot,Op Martlet etc,or after Epsom,covering the Hill 112 meatgrinder.
The grass in the foreground is painted fake fur,while the middle background are a few hobby mats,blending into a painted backdrop showing the exact terrain looking from the German lines on to Le Mesnil Patry.
A movie would be super cool. Maybe hard to get the green light over here for one that only concerns Commonwealth troops. It would have to be epic and rely primarily on CGI. Rest assured though,no matter how much emphasis the director put into authenticity,some dweeb would pan it because of an important issue like"they used the wrong color on his throat mike electric cord".
Fingers crossed and prayers said,
J
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Member Since: April 10, 2011
entire network: 7,941 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Sunday, September 22, 2019 - 02:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Super cool figures, base & photos Jerry – is that a 1/72 Churchill?



Thanks Tim-meister,
Yep,1/72 scale beastie lurks in the background.
J
Hohenstaufen
Visit this Community
England - South East, United Kingdom
Member Since: December 13, 2004
entire network: 2,192 Posts
KitMaker Network: 386 Posts
Posted: Sunday, September 22, 2019 - 12:37 AM UTC
Jerry, you've pulled it off again! Very nice figures. Where did the grass come from I want some! Operation Epsom led to the formation of the "Scottish Corridor". This pulled II SS Panzer Korps into the battle prematurely, the Germans had been hoping to keep these units in reserve for a major offensive of their own. Are you going to do a diorama of Hill 112? I'd really like to see your iteration of that. I love the way you are bringing in some of the forgotten battles of Normandy. Hill 112 was a real meat-grinder. I still can't understand why no one has ever made a film about it.
Dioramartin
Visit this Community
New South Wales, Australia
Member Since: May 04, 2016
entire network: 1,476 Posts
KitMaker Network: 13 Posts
Posted: Saturday, September 21, 2019 - 10:36 PM UTC
Super cool figures, base & photos Jerry – is that a 1/72 Churchill?
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Member Since: April 10, 2011
entire network: 7,941 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Saturday, September 21, 2019 - 03:46 AM UTC
Churchill tanks from the 7 RTR where in support of the Glaswegians that day.



jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Member Since: April 10, 2011
entire network: 7,941 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Saturday, September 21, 2019 - 02:14 AM UTC
Mike,Maarten and Dale,
Thanks Gents so much for the kind remarks,
J
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Member Since: April 10, 2011
entire network: 7,941 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Saturday, September 21, 2019 - 02:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hey Jerry, looks great so far. Getting tingly out here with the anti


cipation

Thanks!
Don’t be agitating the Scots. You don’t need that on your plate




I know right? I don't wanna mess with the members of the traditional Celtic strike force,at the forefront of all fights involving the Empire.
Additionally,I don't want to impair the free flow of whiskey by creating any issues either!
J
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Member Since: April 10, 2011
entire network: 7,941 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Saturday, September 21, 2019 - 02:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Looking good as always but please edit your post out of respect please, It should be Glaswegians instead of Glasgowigians. Keep up the great subjects and Thanks
Paul



Ahhh yes,sorry Paul,The miss spelling was done with no animus,just poor spelling skills! LoL
I made the correction,
J
dhines
Visit this Community
Nova Scotia, Canada
Member Since: November 17, 2015
entire network: 407 Posts
KitMaker Network: 28 Posts
Posted: Saturday, September 21, 2019 - 01:00 AM UTC
Great job Jerry, I cant wait to see more. As usual Jerry, you always pull off a showstopper. Best regards......Dale
maartenboersma
Visit this Community
Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Member Since: October 10, 2010
entire network: 762 Posts
KitMaker Network: 10 Posts
Posted: Saturday, September 21, 2019 - 12:11 AM UTC
justsendit
Visit this Community
Colorado, United States
Member Since: February 24, 2014
entire network: 3,033 Posts
KitMaker Network: 361 Posts
Posted: Friday, September 20, 2019 - 04:08 PM UTC
Nice groundwork! And that perspective angle looks really good.🍺🍺🍺

—mike