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Operation Anthropoid
G-man69
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Posted: Friday, September 11, 2020 - 03:16 AM UTC
Hi Tim,

Excellent work on the signage, interested to see how they look when printed in scale.

Cheers, ,

G
jrutman
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Posted: Friday, September 11, 2020 - 02:58 AM UTC
Impressive research and photoshop work there buddy! Pays off with great results. You put more effort into just these signs than some guys do with a whole model! Seems I myself will never get over my mental block about learning how to use the "putor for stuff like this.
J
Dioramartin
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Posted: Thursday, September 10, 2020 - 10:42 PM UTC
Thanks again Jan your potential Agent sounds very promising. As for the RAL number, as you say weathering is one factor but there are so many others like our respective devices & eyesight, so I can’t get too precious about it. All I can say is it won’t be a purply-red, an orangey-red, a pinkish red, a dark red or a light red…



Yep still using MS Paint after nearly 30 years, almost got the hang of it now. The small lower-right version is 1/35 size, however when I printed it & stuck it on a thin balsa panel with white glue & added a layer on top to make it glossy, the lettering developed a pinkish tinge. Next trial will be a fixative spray first & then stuck on a white plastic panel, that should solve the problem. Ridiculous how much time & effort went into modifying the Fette Fraktur font but it can’t be faked when it’s going to be in view right behind the Merc., even if in teeny weeny letters. Incidentally I reverse my previous correction, the first line IS all lower-case, no capitals. Here’s where I’m up to with the other signs…



As mentioned before there will be several “D’s” & arrows in view, the masters seen here hopefully awaiting clarification of their colour(s)..black or red? The two ochre-ish place-signs are WW2-era style but the originals are illegible so I’ve guessed likely nearby locations that would have been signposted on that bend. The red-bordered notice, and the “3” are also inventions that resemble what’s barely visible on lamp-posts. So that leaves just three which are as accurately replicated as I’m able to. The diamond-sign’s shadows are just an experiment which will succeed or fail in full sunshine.



Weathering printed-out signs on paper will most likely end in smudgy tears, so I’ve tried to do it at source. So much of that detail is lost by the time it’s reduced to 1/35 scale but let’s see what they all look like when test-planted in situ
Mushonza
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Posted: Wednesday, September 09, 2020 - 03:26 AM UTC
The current street signs in Prague are made with red paint RAL 3000 (looks like it is called flame red) and white paint RAL 9003 (signal white). I am not sure if these were the colors used throughout WW2, but probably close enough, if you factor in weathering, etc.

I am still searching for information on the "D" signs. I reached out to the Public transportation museum in Prague and am waiting to hear from their director emeritus. Let's keep our fingers crossed that he will have some useful insights into this mystery!
Golikell
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Posted: Wednesday, September 09, 2020 - 01:22 AM UTC
My pleasure
I actually had to do some research on this for the sign I wanted to include with my railway station dio. The font used in official publications (in this case the Reichsbahn logo):
Dioramartin
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Posted: Tuesday, September 08, 2020 - 11:26 PM UTC
Awesome Jan, I’d never have guessed RED & even better you’ve given me a good idea which red – tram & perhaps more accurately Prague Red. And your 2nd link shows the alternative Fraktur version of slim “s” which appears on the sign. Cheers

Erwin - I’m sure you’re right about the individual sign-writer and my mistake, of course the “K” of “Klein” is upper-case not lower & maybe the signwriter used the slim “s” to save space. Whatever I’ve downloaded an FF font I can play with in a graphics program, thanks again for saving me a lot of time
Golikell
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Posted: Tuesday, September 08, 2020 - 12:40 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Wow a big thank you guys:

Erwin – your 2nd link even had a reasonable blow-up of the sign itself, perfect. And you anticipated the next headache very well about the font but are you sure it’s Fette Fraktur? See below, I can see it’s very close but compare the small “k” of “klein” & small “s” of “holleschowitz”… I get the impression there are several versions of FF, could you just check if yours is OK before we proceed...




That picture actually allowed me to get the first line correct. The second was more legible...

I thought I was, but not so sure anymore... Fonts are a real quagmire. There are many similar, yet not identical fonts... It seems a Faktur or Gothic font. Blacktype is also similar yet different one.
To make things worse, these signs were apparently hand painted, so maybe some quircks of the guy/girl might have turned it into something unique...
Golikell
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Posted: Tuesday, September 08, 2020 - 12:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Here you are:

1st line - Klein-Holleschowitz
2nd line - K Holešovičkám (street name in Czech)
3rd line - Lieben VIII Libeň (part of Prague)

Few nice pics: https://obalky.kosmas.cz/ArticleFiles/215627/215627_uk.pdf/FILE/Anthropoid_215627_uk.pdf
HTH




We are great detectives, aren't we???



Yes, Sir but I have made a stupid typo in the street name.
My bad.



Typos do happen
It is alway nice to see that one find the same info as a local with more knowledge...
Talking of which, are you abel to find out what font was used on the old name signs?
Mushonza
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Posted: Monday, September 07, 2020 - 10:21 PM UTC
Sorry, Erwin! Learning the ropes here! You have done some fine detective work here on the street sign!

Take care!




Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Just a small correction on line 2. The street name in Czech is "V Holešovičkách".




Wrong quote

TomCZE
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Posted: Monday, September 07, 2020 - 08:47 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Here you are:

1st line - Klein-Holleschowitz
2nd line - K Holešovičkám (street name in Czech)
3rd line - Lieben VIII Libeň (part of Prague)

Few nice pics: https://obalky.kosmas.cz/ArticleFiles/215627/215627_uk.pdf/FILE/Anthropoid_215627_uk.pdf
HTH



We are great detectives, aren't we???



Yes, Sir but I have made a stupid typo in the street name.
My bad.
Mushonza
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Posted: Monday, September 07, 2020 - 08:39 PM UTC
Just to add to Erwin's information on the font, here is a link to the German wiki page on the Fraktur script: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraktur_(Schrift).

And here is a table with all the letters: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lesehilfe_Fraktur.svg#/media/Datei:Lesehilfe_Fraktur.svg.




Quoted Text

Wow a big thank you guys:

Erwin – your 2nd link even had a reasonable blow-up of the sign itself, perfect. And you anticipated the next headache very well about the font but are you sure it’s Fette Fraktur? See below, I can see it’s very close but compare the small “k” of “klein” & small “s” of “holleschowitz”… I get the impression there are several versions of FF, could you just check if yours is OK before we proceed...





Tom – even better, now I’ve no excuse for getting the accents wrong. I was relieved to see you posted the same link as one of Erwin’s, which I’ve been using since the beginning – “relieved” because I always half-dread an unknown new picture-archive revealing something I’ve guessed or estimated to be totally wrong…& I’m still expecting some battered old Agfa print to show up proving the house was blue.

Jan – your link was extra-useful for the colours of some other signs I have to replicate…which begs the question: What colours were in the V Holešovičkách sign? I’ve been assuming black with white letters but now I’m not sure about anything in monochrome……and my desk-printer doesn’t accept gold cartridges.

The same uncertainty principle colour-wise now applies to the “D” signs, here’s a slightly better shot…



There will be 3 of these in the dio, each has the arrow nailed beneath it although the 4th arrow (pictured on Sept 5th and visible here too) appears on its own, but they’re clearly associated. I don’t know what “D” stands for but these signs look quite new compared to others, which is why I’ve thought they were Occupation. From their positions they seem to be indicating a route (in both directions) rather than anything relating to traffic conditions, but I have an infinite capacity for being wrong

Mushonza
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Posted: Monday, September 07, 2020 - 08:24 PM UTC
Tim, the V Holešovičkách street sign would have been white letters on red background - a convention for street signs that is still in use in Prague (with a minor modification). Here is a link with a picture of a Prague street sign from the WW2 period: http://www.vhu.cz/nejen-zbrane-ci-vystroj-take-ulicni-cedule-prochazeji-dilnami-restauratoru-vhu/.

As for the "D" sign, I have not been able to find anything so far. I am not sure if it is a traffic sign for cars, or trams. I will keep searching and will let you know if I come across any information that would shed more light on this. In any case it seems to be an "informative" sign and my hunch is that the letter D and the edges were black on white background. I say that, however, without having any evidence so far.



Quoted Text

Wow a big thank you guys:

Erwin – your 2nd link even had a reasonable blow-up of the sign itself, perfect. And you anticipated the next headache very well about the font but are you sure it’s Fette Fraktur? See below, I can see it’s very close but compare the small “k” of “klein” & small “s” of “holleschowitz”… I get the impression there are several versions of FF, could you just check if yours is OK before we proceed...





Tom – even better, now I’ve no excuse for getting the accents wrong. I was relieved to see you posted the same link as one of Erwin’s, which I’ve been using since the beginning – “relieved” because I always half-dread an unknown new picture-archive revealing something I’ve guessed or estimated to be totally wrong…& I’m still expecting some battered old Agfa print to show up proving the house was blue.

Jan – your link was extra-useful for the colours of some other signs I have to replicate…which begs the question: What colours were in the V Holešovičkách sign? I’ve been assuming black with white letters but now I’m not sure about anything in monochrome……and my desk-printer doesn’t accept gold cartridges.

The same uncertainty principle colour-wise now applies to the “D” signs, here’s a slightly better shot…



There will be 3 of these in the dio, each has the arrow nailed beneath it although the 4th arrow (pictured on Sept 5th and visible here too) appears on its own, but they’re clearly associated. I don’t know what “D” stands for but these signs look quite new compared to others, which is why I’ve thought they were Occupation. From their positions they seem to be indicating a route (in both directions) rather than anything relating to traffic conditions, but I have an infinite capacity for being wrong

Dioramartin
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Posted: Monday, September 07, 2020 - 06:51 PM UTC
Wow a big thank you guys:

Erwin – your 2nd link even had a reasonable blow-up of the sign itself, perfect. And you anticipated the next headache very well about the font but are you sure it’s Fette Fraktur? See below, I can see it’s very close but compare the small “k” of “klein” & small “s” of “holleschowitz”… I get the impression there are several versions of FF, could you just check if yours is OK before we proceed...





Tom – even better, now I’ve no excuse for getting the accents wrong. I was relieved to see you posted the same link as one of Erwin’s, which I’ve been using since the beginning – “relieved” because I always half-dread an unknown new picture-archive revealing something I’ve guessed or estimated to be totally wrong…& I’m still expecting some battered old Agfa print to show up proving the house was blue.

Jan – your link was extra-useful for the colours of some other signs I have to replicate…which begs the question: What colours were in the V Holešovičkách sign? I’ve been assuming black with white letters but now I’m not sure about anything in monochrome……and my desk-printer doesn’t accept gold cartridges.

The same uncertainty principle colour-wise now applies to the “D” signs, here’s a slightly better shot…



There will be 3 of these in the dio, each has the arrow nailed beneath it although the 4th arrow (pictured on Sept 5th and visible here too) appears on its own, but they’re clearly associated. I don’t know what “D” stands for but these signs look quite new compared to others, which is why I’ve thought they were Occupation. From their positions they seem to be indicating a route (in both directions) rather than anything relating to traffic conditions, but I have an infinite capacity for being wrong
Golikell
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Posted: Monday, September 07, 2020 - 05:11 AM UTC
I think Tim means the sign on the far right:
Mushonza
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Posted: Monday, September 07, 2020 - 04:50 AM UTC
Thank you for your kind words, Tim! Here is a look at the first road sign in a museum of roads in a small town in the Czech Republic: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Vik%C3%BD%C5%99ovice,_Muzeum_silnic_(04).jpg#/media/Soubor:Vikýřovice,_Muzeum_silnic_(04).jpg

I believe the black arrow is a regular Czech road sign showing the allowed direction of traffic.

Can you post a photo of the square white "D" sign? Not sure what that would be but can have a look.




Quoted Text

Thanks guys & Jerry that’s a big call, you’re too kind & of course I’ll argue against it - maybe a new benchmark in Muddling Through & there’s a bunch more question marks on my list to come!

Hey Jan - welcome to Armorama, and this great Diorama forum, and my little vignette. Thanks so much for going to the trouble of responding to the quiz – which you’ve won of course, although the only prize I can offer is a place in the list of Contributors in the final Credits. I’d tried Google-imaging “ww2/pre-war Czech road signs” & related keywords & only got modern ones, I never broke into Czech-Wiki. So yes the “diamond” sign must be white with red borders, as illustrated by Stuart (thanks mate!) and Erwin that’s what I thought too, but presumably the marked difference in shade between the upper and lower borders is because the edge is bevelled, creating shadow? Such a right-of-way sign makes sense in that location, probably encouraging vehicles to keep away from the parallel tram-ways.

And yes on closer inspection I don’t think the arrow in the 2nd photo has a border - there are 4 of them spread around this diorama and I think I detected a faint edge in one of the others but won’t bother with it. I tend to believe these arrows (along with several big white square “D” signs with thick borders, there’s one just visible down the street from the diamond sign) were all black & likely directions for the Occupation force rather than local signs.

Here’s another question – the indistinct letters/words in the sign on the railings…



The 1st line looks like “Kirim hollrichomits” which makes no sense to me or Google-translate. 2nd line “ V Holesovickach”? 3rd line - impossible. The gardens were in the grounds of the Institute for Geological & Coal Research but none of those words in Czech seem to match the sign - the suburb is of course Holešovice. Maybe the 1st line says “No trespassing”?! Incidentally the diamond sign’s seen side-on in this shot, it doesn’t look particularly bevelled but I guess it must be.

Anyhow thanks again all, any further input most welcome

Golikell
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Posted: Monday, September 07, 2020 - 04:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Just a small correction on line 2. The street name in Czech is "V Holešovičkách".




Wrong quote
Golikell
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Posted: Monday, September 07, 2020 - 04:46 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Hi Erwin,

I have this image of you now waddling around like Hercule Poirot, .

Cheers, ,

G



Accross the internet that is...
This font can be quite hard to read... But since I am not unknown in German I knew to decipher some key letters, which led me to a larger pic of the same sign... and so on...
Mushonza
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Posted: Monday, September 07, 2020 - 04:36 AM UTC
Just a small correction on line 2. The street name in Czech is "V Holešovičkách".



Quoted Text

It actally says the following:

Klein Holleschowitz (a village in the neighbourhood)

V Holešovičkách


Looking up the first gives me the following:

https://obalky.kosmas.cz/ArticleFiles/215627/215627_uk.pdf/FILE/Anthropoid_215627_uk.pdf
Some stunning pics in there....

The second is a streetname
https://en.mapy.cz/zakladni?x=14.4555254&y=50.1164242&z=16&source=stre&id=122522

3rd line: district name:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libe%C5%88 (in German, first word: Lieben)

Prague 8 is a munipal district:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_8


Conclusion, it is a street sign.



Mushonza
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Posted: Monday, September 07, 2020 - 04:30 AM UTC
Yes, it is this one. It is in the picture next to Heydrich's car.



Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Hi Tim,

I have come across your Anthropoid project and found it absolutely fascinating. As someone who was born in (former) Czechoslovakia, I am very interested in the history of Operation Anthropoid. Your diorama is looking to be an incredible piece of artwork that should be placed in a museum! I am looking forward to following your progress.

As for your questions about the road signs, there is an article on the subject on the Czech Wikipedia: https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopravn%C3%AD_zna%C4%8Den%C3%AD_v_%C4%8Ceskoslovensku.

According to this article, the first sign would be white in the middle with red edges (marking a road with the right of way in the intersection). The present-day sign with the yellow in the middle and white along the edges was introduced after WWII (not sure exactly when, but believe it was sometime in the 1950's).

The second sign would be a black arrow on a white background. I am not sure there would necessarily be a thin red border, but it is possible (it would be present on the full round version of the road sign, however).

Hope this helps! Looking forward to following your project!

Jan




so this one? -Czechoslovak road sign from the 1938 law (č. 82/1938 Sb. z. a n.) Czechoslovakia_1938_road_sign_-_Priority_Road


sorry as I was unclear on which sign?

G-man69
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Posted: Monday, September 07, 2020 - 04:03 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Here you are:

1st line - Klein-Holleschowitz
2nd line - K Holešovičkám (street name in Czech)
3rd line - Lieben VIII Libeň (part of Prague)

Few nice pics: https://obalky.kosmas.cz/ArticleFiles/215627/215627_uk.pdf/FILE/Anthropoid_215627_uk.pdf
HTH



We are great detectives, aren't we???



Hi Erwin,

I have this image of you now waddling around like Hercule Poirot, .

Cheers, ,

G
Golikell
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Posted: Monday, September 07, 2020 - 03:01 AM UTC
And, before you ask: the German words are written in the font called Fette Faktur. If needed, I can provide you with this font... Just drop me a PM.
Golikell
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Posted: Monday, September 07, 2020 - 02:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Here you are:

1st line - Klein-Holleschowitz
2nd line - K Holešovičkám (street name in Czech)
3rd line - Lieben VIII Libeň (part of Prague)

Few nice pics: https://obalky.kosmas.cz/ArticleFiles/215627/215627_uk.pdf/FILE/Anthropoid_215627_uk.pdf
HTH



We are great detectives, aren't we???
TomCZE
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Posted: Monday, September 07, 2020 - 02:47 AM UTC
Here you are:

1st line - Klein-Holleschowitz
2nd line - K Holešovičkám (street name in Czech)
3rd line - Lieben VIII Libeň (part of Prague)

Few nice pics: https://obalky.kosmas.cz/ArticleFiles/215627/215627_uk.pdf/FILE/Anthropoid_215627_uk.pdf
HTH
Golikell
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Posted: Monday, September 07, 2020 - 02:44 AM UTC
It actally says the following:

Klein Holleschowitz (a village in the neighbourhood)

V Holešovičkách


Looking up the first gives me the following:

https://obalky.kosmas.cz/ArticleFiles/215627/215627_uk.pdf/FILE/Anthropoid_215627_uk.pdf
Some stunning pics in there....

The second is a streetname
https://en.mapy.cz/zakladni?x=14.4555254&y=50.1164242&z=16&source=stre&id=122522

3rd line: district name:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libe%C5%88 (in German, first word: Lieben)

Prague 8 is a munipal district:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_8


Conclusion, it is a street sign.


Dioramartin
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Posted: Monday, September 07, 2020 - 12:57 AM UTC
Thanks guys & Jerry that’s a big call, you’re too kind & of course I’ll argue against it - maybe a new benchmark in Muddling Through & there’s a bunch more question marks on my list to come!

Hey Jan - welcome to Armorama, and this great Diorama forum, and my little vignette. Thanks so much for going to the trouble of responding to the quiz – which you’ve won of course, although the only prize I can offer is a place in the list of Contributors in the final Credits. I’d tried Google-imaging “ww2/pre-war Czech road signs” & related keywords & only got modern ones, I never broke into Czech-Wiki. So yes the “diamond” sign must be white with red borders, as illustrated by Stuart (thanks mate!) and Erwin that’s what I thought too, but presumably the marked difference in shade between the upper and lower borders is because the edge is bevelled, creating shadow? Such a right-of-way sign makes sense in that location, probably encouraging vehicles to keep away from the parallel tram-ways.

And yes on closer inspection I don’t think the arrow in the 2nd photo has a border - there are 4 of them spread around this diorama and I think I detected a faint edge in one of the others but won’t bother with it. I tend to believe these arrows (along with several big white square “D” signs with thick borders, there’s one just visible down the street from the diamond sign) were all black & likely directions for the Occupation force rather than local signs.

Here’s another question – the indistinct letters/words in the sign on the railings…



The 1st line looks like “Kirim hollrichomits” which makes no sense to me or Google-translate. 2nd line “ V Holesovickach”? 3rd line - impossible. The gardens were in the grounds of the Institute for Geological & Coal Research but none of those words in Czech seem to match the sign - the suburb is of course Holešovice. Maybe the 1st line says “No trespassing”?! Incidentally the diamond sign’s seen side-on in this shot, it doesn’t look particularly bevelled but I guess it must be.

Anyhow thanks again all, any further input most welcome