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India-Pakistan Dispute
sourkraut
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Posted: Monday, June 03, 2002 - 12:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I am sure news of the Chinese involvement will not exactly cause church bells to ring, however, it does point to the creation of concensus to stop this before it gets way,way out of hand. If you find a site that tells us what they are so mad about, I'd apreciate knowing about it.
thanks
DJ


what chinese involvement?

maybe its time to stick my head in the sand like a lot of other people
210cav
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Posted: Monday, June 03, 2002 - 03:58 AM UTC
Anyone discover why they are ticked at each other---sovereignty over Kashmir?
thanks
DJ
RufusLeeking
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Posted: Monday, June 03, 2002 - 04:15 AM UTC
DJ,
Ever have a fight with your wife and then you don't talk to each other for a couple of hours, but when it's all over, you forgot what it was all about. Pretty much the same thing here, but no make up sex.
210cav
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Posted: Monday, June 03, 2002 - 07:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text

DJ,
Ever have a fight with your wife and then you don't talk to each other for a couple of hours, but when it's all over, you forgot what it was all about. Pretty much the same thing here, but no make up sex.



Beautiful analogy!
GeneralFailure
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Posted: Monday, June 03, 2002 - 08:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text

DJ,
Ever have a fight with your wife and then you don't talk to each other for a couple of hours, but when it's all over, you forgot what it was all about. Pretty much the same thing here, but no make up sex.



ROFL, DJ ! With over a million people gathered to get the fight going, the make up part will certainly inspire us to make impressive dioramas !
210cav
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Posted: Monday, June 03, 2002 - 10:09 PM UTC
The best I can discover as to cause of the present unhappiness is that when the British ended their rule in the 1948 time period, the Indians and Pakistanis could not resolve who owned Kashmir. The UN stepped in for a while then lost interest. The Indians were well into the Soviet realm of influence and the Pakistanis were under the spell of the Chinese. We cut Pakistan out of our loop when we denied them a large number of F-16s they bought. Our interest and influence waxed and wanned depending on the crisis of the moment. Along comes Al-Qaeda and we want assistance. Now, when we drive the Al-Qaeda folks from Afghanistan they fall back through the porous border that stands between Afghanistan and Pakistan and head for more promising land. Lo and behold they completely understand that a conflict between India and Pakistan will provide them the necessary cover to re coup losses and get back into the business of killing innocent civilians. The military powers within both countries are more than willing to get the Kashmir issue "resolved" by blowing each other up. So, in the end, I conclude by saying that Kashmir does not mean anything. Rather, it is the pursuit of the totally illogical goal of destroying one another that leads them to their current impasse. Clausewitz described this as absolute war that is killing for the sake of killing without a political goal. I don't think there is anything anyone can do except tell the boys to fight fair and no use of nukes.
DJ
sourkraut
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Posted: Monday, June 03, 2002 - 10:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

DJ,
Ever have a fight with your wife and then you don't talk to each other for a couple of hours, but when it's all over, you forgot what it was all about. Pretty much the same thing here, but no make up sex.



ROFL, DJ ! With over a million people gathered to get the fight going, the make up part will certainly inspire us to make impressive dioramas !



we already have enough subjects to model we dont need anymore
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 03:26 AM UTC
Guys--I wonder if this thread is attaining some Armorama record for responses? I think we have well over a 100 submissions. Keep it up, great discussion.
DJ
ARENGCA
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Posted: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 06:00 AM UTC


I had a well written, carefully though out reply written, ready to post. Pushed the wrong button...poof. I surrender. Good night, all.
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 08:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text



I had a well written, carefully though out reply written, ready to post. Pushed the wrong button...poof. I surrender. Good night, all.



I trust you will re enter your response.
DJ
staff_Jim
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Posted: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 09:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text



I had a well written, carefully though out reply written, ready to post. Pushed the wrong button...poof. I surrender. Good night, all.



The dreaded "Smiley Backspace Syndrom" no doubt. See the post in the Site Feedback, "Everyone Must Read" topic for more info.

My sympathies.

Jim

210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 06:28 AM UTC
Jim--I believe the boys and I have said about all we can muster on this topic. Is this some kind of Armorama record number of responses? If so, do I get extra promotion points?
DJ
ARENGCA
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 07:57 AM UTC
OK, here goes again:

This is based on my own observations, and some experience in India.

The basic conflict is over power. Specifically keeping it, and remaining in it. There is a strong element of machismo present in the social fabric and politics of the region. Backing down is a sign of weakness, and any hint of weakness can spawn the collapse of a government with the concommitant removal of the guy in power. To remain in power, the bosses, and their flunkies, must demonstrate strength and resolve in the face of foreign threats.

The Kashmir region itself has nothing worth owning. It is relatively worthless economically, and has little strategic importance to either nation. The only significance of the region is that both India and Pak claim it, and can't resolve the issue. The fact is, if either India or Pak said "to heck with it" and just walked away, the whole area would disappear from the news and continue to quietly sink into abject poverty. No one would care about it anymore.

One significant roadblock to resolving the situation is the nationalistic drumbeating and patriotic fervor that has been grown in both countries in an effort to protect the power of a particular group. There are three basic groups in either country: The have-a-lots, the have-a-littles, and the don't-even-know-what-they-are-missing. The last group is the largest, and are primarily occupied with the day-to-day problem of not starving to death. They have no interest in the Kashmir, and little interest in anything that does not directly affect their daily struggle to just survive. They are mostly dirt-poor, and largely uneducated. They have no concept of nuclear war, and most cannot even grasp the idea of "10-20 million dead".

(I should be very clear here...I am not talking about living-in-your-car poor. I am talking about are-you-sure-we-can't-eat-sand? poor. These folks are poor beyond our priviledged Western understanding.)

The top end group are the relatively wealthy class. These are the movers and shakers in each nation's politics, and usually either support the current regime or support the political opposition. They are remoted from the rest of their own society by their economic station, and tend to consider the lower classes as tools or pawns. They don't exactly look down on them, but they aren't too concerned with anything that doesn't affect their power base. This is a relatively small part of the society, but wields most of the influence. They would consider losses among the poorest classes to be saddening but acceptable, to be leveraged for political purposes. Since the bulk of the major cities are composed of the poorer classes, and the powerful generally live away from the city, nuclear strikes are a bearable hardship for them.

The middle group is the local version of "middle class". They are actually quite poor by Western standards, but are pretty well-off by local standards. They are generally educated, and somewhat understand nuclear war and the staggering losses associated with it. However, they are primarily concerned with improving their own situation and are only concerned with national politics as far as it affects them directly. They are the primary electors, such as their systems allow, and their support can make (or break) the current government. They are often manipulated by the power class, using the standard means of economic payoffs and patriotism/nationalism.

This nationalism is the key to why it is so hard to back down. Both sides have whipped up sentiment in support of their own position, usually in an effort to divert attention from domestic issues, and to enable the claim of being the stronger leader. At this point in the crisis, there are not a lot of ways to back down without appearing weak. As of today, the Indian government has offered a solution (the UN...HA!) without actually giving up anything. There isn't much room for any other approaches, and if this doesn't work there isn't much recourse short of war. Provocation by al-Quaeda groups in the region (guess where they came from?) could easily erode any wiggle room the Indians have, since one of their conditions is stopping the cross-border terrorist attacks.

The outcome of a nuclear war is messy at best. Aside from the actual nukes and their byproducts, the region is likely to fall apart completely. India is composed of a number of distinct societies and cultures, and at least two major religions that are already at odds. There is a good chance that India would break up into 7-10 different 'republics', most with an axe to grind with one or more of their neighbors. With the army and the police otherwise engaged, the local warlords are likely to take the opportunity to 'improve their positions'.

Also, China has long had its' eye on the Northern areas of India, which are ethnically closer to China than to India. The chaos of a nuke war offers an ideal opportunity to create a Chinese 'protectorate'...just until the central government gets back on their feet and offers the residents adequate protections, natch.

The UN is unlikely to offer much to end the conflict. Their track record for conflict resolution is poor unless the US is standing over their shoulder. The US penchant for passing responsibility to the UN, then standing back while the UN bureaucracy avoids making decisions (can't be fired for making the wrong decision if you continue to study the question). At best, the UN can only defer the confrontation until later. Putting US troops (or anyone elses!) into the region risks creating a grounding rod for the tension, as both sides turn to deal with the interlopers. If a nuclear exchange does occur anyway, then troops in the area will simply increase the casualty count.

This is just my opinion, but I don't see many alternatives to some sort of war either now or sometime in the near future. I pray that it doesn't happen, but expect that it will. Perhaps the boil will reduce to a simmer, but it will not cool down much. Don't be shocked if we see mushrooms over Indo-Pak.

I don't know if this helps, or if this even adds to the discussion, but I wanted to add my bit to the soup.
Tankera1
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 08:32 AM UTC
I have followed this thread with great interest and have read some interesting ideas. However, what scares me is that we really have no idea what so ever about what a nuke war would be like. Yes, I know we talk about it and we even scenario it but no one has lived it. Ten to twenty million dead, within minutes. Disease, lack of resources, god it is almost unimaginable. Too stupid to contemplate, yet so probable it is frightening.
Spike9077
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 08:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text



I had a well written, carefully though out reply written, ready to post. Pushed the wrong button...poof. I surrender. Good night, all.


You didnt mention long.

Mark
sourkraut
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 07:55 PM UTC
so whats the next problem for us to solve?
ARENGCA
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Posted: Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 02:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text


You didnt mention long.





Sorry about that. The original wasn't quite so long, and I realized after I posted that it had grown. I even left out the parts about the generals who actually think that a war would be good. I apologize to all who were overwhelmed by my post, and pledge to keep them under 1000 words in the future!
Greg
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Posted: Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 04:09 AM UTC
Don't apologize for length, ARENGCA. You have posted abrillaint and cogent analysis and are to be roundly commended. This former history teacher gives it an A+, and recommends it become the basis for a master's thesis...

Greg
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 08:04 AM UTC

Quoted Text

so whats the next problem for us to solve?



Sir---I bow to your winning ways with words to pose the next topic. Obviously, this remarkable discussion did not get me promoted via the fast track.
DJ
Posted: Friday, June 07, 2002 - 11:45 AM UTC
............still no takers for the curry cookoff, eh?
Spike9077
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Posted: Friday, June 07, 2002 - 11:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


You didnt mention long.

Sorry about that. The original wasn't quite so long, and I realized after I posted that it had grown. I even left out the parts about the generals who actually think that a war would be good. I apologize to all who were overwhelmed by my post, and pledge to keep them under 1000 words in the future!


I didn't mean that in a bad way. Sorry about that. I thought that the article was great. I didn't mean it was bad because it was long. Just a simple misunderstanding. Sorry if I upset you.

Mark
Posted: Friday, June 07, 2002 - 01:21 PM UTC
my ideas are better
210cav
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Posted: Friday, June 07, 2002 - 09:49 PM UTC

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............still no takers for the curry cookoff, eh?



Pak--I am in for it
DJ
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Posted: Friday, June 07, 2002 - 10:08 PM UTC
I feel for the poor souls that will take the brunt of the attacks. I don't believe that either nation posesses the technology to use nukes tactically. In other words, the troops in the field will be relatively safe (unless amassed for an attack and subsequently targeted). Their nuclear delivery abilities are basically a step above the Iraqi SCUD attacks on Saudi Arabia and Isreal. "Let's toss a missile towards the major population centers and see what happens."
Bravo-Comm
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Posted: Friday, June 07, 2002 - 10:40 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


You didnt mention long.





Sorry about that. The original wasn't quite so long, and I realized after I posted that it had grown. I even left out the parts about the generals who actually think that a war would be good. I apologize to all who were overwhelmed by my post, and pledge to keep them under 1000 words in the future!



ARENGA:
I Also agree with the consinsus your evaluation was quiet insightful, and indeed interesting.
Thank you. And I alos agree that you deserve an A+ for your efforts......For What it is Worth anyway. Youor final thoughts on prayer and the in result are VERY correct.... I guesss that it is a prettty scary thought that we may live to see such disasterous results occur in our life time!!

DAGGER-1 "When Science Fails, Brute Force Wins"