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History Club
Military history and past events only. Rants or inflamitory comments will be removed.
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Anzio
210cav
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Friday, May 24, 2002 - 05:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text

another thought........ well, the germans fought hard and made the allies pay for every foot 'til the end of the war.



Pak---once again relying on D'Este's superb book, you might want to read his remarks about the Cisterna action. Brutal combat, well described.
DJ
Posted: Friday, May 24, 2002 - 01:42 PM UTC
to 210cav,
thank you, you are a field marshall among lowly generals.............
ponysoldier
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Posted: Friday, May 24, 2002 - 02:15 PM UTC
So far every one has presented all the proper facts, of this campain If I'm not
mistaken was not lucas sacked in north africa for his lack action ?
Mark Clark was or could have been a good chief of staff but was not a leader
at any level {msgt M.P.Smith 503 P.I.R} my dad was there he could not even talk
of this with out breaking down . Clark wanted Lucas to succeced with what was on the
beach he [Clark ] only reenforced the beach head to keep from losing all hands.

ponysoldier

The Horse The Gun The Man
Posted: Friday, May 24, 2002 - 02:23 PM UTC
amen ponysoldier, you speak for me. should of had patton ............oh well...................
210cav
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Posted: Friday, May 24, 2002 - 08:54 PM UTC

Quoted Text

So far every one has presented all the proper facts, of this campain If I'm not
mistaken was not lucas sacked in north africa for his lack action ?
Mark Clark was or could have been a good chief of staff but was not a leader
at any level {msgt M.P.Smith 503 P.I.R} my dad was there he could not even talk
of this with out breaking down . Clark wanted Lucas to succeced with what was on the
beach he [Clark ] only reenforced the beach head to keep from losing all hands.

ponysoldier


The Horse The Gun The Man



Amazing , John P. Lucas was a well-known artillery officer. An excellant trainer of Soldiers, he was selected to lead the force into Anzio after Clark sacked the previous VI Corps commander. He never got relieved in North Africa. You might have him confused with another corps commander. A fellow by the name of Lloyd Fredendall leader of II Corps was returned to the US after the Kasserine debacle. He was replaced by Patton and then Bradley. Fredendall did not get reduced in rank while Lucas suffered for his time in command of the Anzio beach head. A large part of his problem was his inability to impress the British. They viewed him as a headquarters bound (which he was) commander. Very difficult to demonstrate leadership from a bunker. I went to Anzio and the headquaters where Lucas located his command post. It is several stories below ground. He was anything but a coward. However, the impression that the placement of his headquarters left on Soldiers in the field was not of a bold, dynamic leader.
DJ
Posted: Friday, May 24, 2002 - 11:21 PM UTC
a lot of german generals led from the front.
210cav
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Posted: Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 01:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text

a lot of german generals led from the front.



So did a lot of fine American (and British and Canadian) general officers
Posted: Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 05:50 AM UTC
well goody, goody for them..............................lol
sourkraut
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Indiana, United States
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Posted: Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 10:37 AM UTC
i think it was longstreet that said"its kinda hard to lead from the rear"
210cav
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Posted: Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 09:16 PM UTC

Quoted Text

well goody, goody for them..............................lol



That's why we triumphed over a demonstrable evil---and, won!
Posted: Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 11:05 PM UTC
i guess i've never taken history to seriously, to painful for to many. both for allies and axis. i don't make light of it, speculation and what-ifs interest me more. it happened and that is all there is to it. to many died needlessly on both sides and simplistic answers are always the norm of these speculations. does it really matter who did what when, it happened and that is the tragedy of this particular piece of history. i like military history and hardware very much, but in my heart of hearts wish neither had been invented.
chris
Arthur
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Posted: Sunday, May 26, 2002 - 02:33 AM UTC
Being a Euroropean i take history very seriosly most of it happened on our front door,being brought up in a small village in Scotland in the Fifties,i can remember a lot of men who
were as we say "not the full shilling",and who can blame them.There were also people
whom we called DPs....Displaced persons,in one small place in the Highlands it was like
a view on Europe,they came from everywhere,we even had a chap we called Tiger,an
ex German tanker,who never did go home.As far as i am concerned,Right fought might
and Right won
Arthur
Am Alba Mannich
210cav
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Posted: Sunday, May 26, 2002 - 05:17 AM UTC
Arthur--I hear you. Nothing glorious over aiding, abetting, and dying for such a despicable regime. Thank the Lord, better people said enough and applied themselves to the task.
Posted: Sunday, May 26, 2002 - 11:04 AM UTC
i see my point was missed. sure their is evil in the world, but what is past is past and we can't do anything about it. just hope it never happens again.
210cav
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Posted: Monday, May 27, 2002 - 12:15 AM UTC
As a Soldier better than I routinely stated "Hope is not a force multiplier." Prepare for war in time of peace. We need to recall the past and use it as a basis for making a better world.
Arthur
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Posted: Monday, May 27, 2002 - 03:57 AM UTC
They say that history never repeats itself,in Eourope it always has,its time we all take note of what has happened,and make sure the grave yards were worth something,to us all
Germans included.
Arthur
Am alba Mannich