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More 'What if' Pacific: Iwo Jima
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 07:23 PM UTC
I can not bring to mind too many "pure" Marine operations. The few I can recall would be Tarawa and Iwo Jima. Other than that, the Army is always a participant (Guadalcanal, Bougainville, Pelelieu) all have the Army either following or part of the landing force. Am I off base here?
DJ
Cob
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Posted: Friday, August 23, 2002 - 12:01 AM UTC
That sounds about right DJ. I think the Makin op was Marine Raider's only but it was obviously much smaller in scale than the others.

Cob
210cav
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Posted: Friday, August 23, 2002 - 03:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

That sounds about right DJ. I think the Makin op was Marine Raider's only but it was obviously much smaller in scale than the others.

Cob



COB--you are right on the Makin Island Raid. It was a large contingent of Carlson's 2nd Raider Battalion packed into two subs (Narwahl and Nautilus ?). Makin is part of the Tarawa Atoll and there is some speculation that the 1942 raid may well have caused the Japanese to realize they were vulnerable and thus re inforce the atoll. Interesting speculation. I am still searching for a detailed analysis of the proposed Formosa landing. Have not found the reference detailed that the plan was to seize only a portion of the island. Can you point me to a particular document?
thanks
DJ
Ranger74
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Posted: Friday, August 23, 2002 - 08:50 AM UTC
Even more interesting is fact that Army amphib tractor battalions carried Marines for Invasions of Saipan and Tinian and Army amphibious tank battalions provided support. When I was 2-68th Armor we wore the ribbon for the Navy Presidential Unit Citation for actions, as an amphibious armored battalioin in that campaign.
210cav
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Posted: Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 01:36 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Even more interesting is fact that Army amphib tractor battalions carried Marines for Invasions of Saipan and Tinian and Army amphibious tank battalions provided support. When I was 2-68th Armor we wore the ribbon for the Navy Presidential Unit Citation for actions, as an amphibious armored battalioin in that campaign.



Has anyone seen a compilation of amphibious landings made by the USMC and the USA during WW II? I can find ones on the airborne operations, but I tried and failed to lay my hands on an authoritative source document for amphibious assaults.
thanks
DJ
Ranger74
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Posted: Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 05:59 AM UTC
I can dig up the Army landings, but it will require going thru the WW2 history collection
Cob
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Posted: Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 06:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

COB--you are right on the Makin Island Raid. It was a large contingent of Carlson's 2nd Raider Battalion packed into two subs (Narwahl and Nautilus ?). Makin is part of the Tarawa Atoll and there is some speculation that the 1942 raid may well have caused the Japanese to realize they were vulnerable and thus re inforce the atoll. Interesting speculation. I am still searching for a detailed analysis of the proposed Formosa landing. Have not found the reference detailed that the plan was to seize only a portion of the island. Can you point me to a particular document?
thanks
DJ



DJ, I think I read about those invasion plan details at the CMH site in the article on Luzon. Soory for the delay in getting an answer. I've been trying to access it but either the site has been down or my computer is hosed up.

Cob
210cav
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Posted: Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 11:06 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

COB--you are right on the Makin Island Raid. It was a large contingent of Carlson's 2nd Raider Battalion packed into two subs (Narwahl and Nautilus ?). Makin is part of the Tarawa Atoll and there is some speculation that the 1942 raid may well have caused the Japanese to realize they were vulnerable and thus re inforce the atoll. Interesting speculation. I am still searching for a detailed analysis of the proposed Formosa landing. Have not found the reference detailed that the plan was to seize only a portion of the island. Can you point me to a particular document?
thanks
DJ



DJ, I think I read about those invasion plan details at the CMH site in the article on Luzon. Soory for the delay in getting an answer. I've been trying to access it but either the site has been down or my computer is hosed up.

Cob



COB----I think they must be undergoing some super duder site protection. I can not get into their site. I'll try to access the USMC historical page when I get to work tomorrow. Helps me pass the time.
DJ
Cob
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Posted: Sunday, August 25, 2002 - 11:18 PM UTC
I managed to get back on the CMH site this morning. Found the reference to the Formosa invasion plans. Heres a link to the page. http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/70-7_21.htm. Scroll down to page 270. Sounds like the original plans called for taking the entire island. Adm. Nimitz proposed taking the southern half and was shot down.

Also found some info on those army amphip battalions here http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/documents/WWII/amsai/amsai.htm . The search engine on this site is pretty good.
Hope this helps.
Cob
210cav
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Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 12:46 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I managed to get back on the CMH site this morning. Found the reference to the Formosa invasion plans. Heres a link to the page. http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/70-7_21.htm. Scroll down to page 270. Sounds like the original plans called for taking the entire island. Adm. Nimitz proposed taking the southern half and was shot down.

Also found some info on those army amphip battalions here http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/documents/WWII/amsai/amsai.htm . The search engine on this site is pretty good.
Hope this helps.
Cob



COB--nailed that hummer. Many thanks
DJ
Ranger74
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Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 01:45 AM UTC
Marine Corps Amphib Operations in the Pacific: The Marines launched a number of USMC-only ops and several where Army units were either in reserve or follow-up. I list those USMC ops that include both of the above. I am not including ops where Marines supported Army ops (New Georgia for one) or where both Army & Marines both landed (Okinawa, etc).

Guadalcanal Campaign: August 42
Guadalcanal (proper) - 1st MARDIV (less 7th Marines & reinforced with 2nd Marines) minus (see below)
Florida Island - 1st Battalion/2nd Marines
Gavutu Island - 1st Marine Parachute Battalion
Tulagi Island - 1st Marine Raider Battalion & 2nd Battalion, 5th Marines

Operation CARTWHEEL (Reduction of Rabual) - OCT-DEC 43
Bougainville - OCT 43 - 3rd MARDIV & 2nd Battalion/1st MAR Prcht Regiment, follow-up & reinforcement by 37th INF DIV (Army) & Americal DIV (Army)
Cape Gloucester (New Britain) - DEC 43 - 1st MARDIV

Gilberts & Marshall Islands
Betio (Tarawa Atoll) NOV 43 - 2nd MARDIV
Roi & Namur (Kwajalein Atoll) FEB 44 - 23rd & 24th Marines, 6th MARDIV
Engeli (Eniwetok Atoll) FEB 44 - 22nd Marines, 6th MARDIV
Parry (Eniwetok) FEB 44 - 22nd Marines, 6th MARDIV

Marianas
Saipan JUN 44 - 2nd & 4th MARDIV, reinforced by 27th INF DIV (Army)
Tinian JUL 44 - 2nd & 4th MARDIV
Guam JUL 44 - 3rd MARDIV & 1st Prov MAR Brigade (305th INF (Army) in brigade reserve), reinforced by remainder of 77th INF DIV (Army)

Approach to the Philipines
Peliliu SEP 44 - 1st MARDIV, reinforced by 321st INF (Army)

Iwo Jima FEB 45 - 3rd, 4th & 5th MARDIV

I also have a list of Army led amphib operations, much longer and more confusing, will require more fomatting to make readable.

If I missed any USMC-led amphib ops (not counting raids like Makin '42), I apoligize to the USMC.

Ranger
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 02:21 AM UTC
Nice rundown. It would be interesting to see how that stacks up against the Army Pacific landings during WW II.
DJ
Ranger74
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Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 10:37 AM UTC
Here are US Army amphib ops for Pacific War

US Army Amphibious Operations – WW2

ALASKA
ALEUTIANS: Attu, May 43, 7th ID;......Kiska, Aug 43, 17th INF & 1st SSF, with Canadian BDE GP

SOUTH & SOUTHEAST PACIFIC
GUADALCANAL: Koli Pt, NOV 42, 2/164th INF;......Verahue, FEB 43, 1/132nd INF

OPERATION CARTWHEEL (Reduction of Rabual)
Woodlark Island, JUN 43, 112th CAV ;.......Kiriwina Island, JUN 43, 158th INF;.....Rendova Island, JUN 43, 43rd DIV;......New Georgia, 3 JUL 43, 1/172nd INF;.......New Georgia, 4 JUL 43, 2/145th INF & 3/148th INF;.......Vanguna Island, JUL 43, 1/103rd INF;........Munda Point, 2 JUL 43, 172nd INF & 169th INF;........Munda Point, 13 JUL 43, 1/103rd INF;........Arundel Island, AUG 43, 172nd INF;.......Vella Lavella, AUG 43, 35th DIV;.......New Britain (Arawe Island), DEC 43, 112th CAV;........Admiralties (Hyane Harbor), FEB 44, 1st BDE/1st CAV DIV;.......(Lombrun), MAR 44, 2/7th CAV;.......(Papitalai Mission), MAR 44, 2/12th CAV;.......(Papitalai), MAR 43, 2/5th CAV;.......(Lugos Mission), MAR 44, 2nd BDE/1st CAV DIV

NEW GUINEA
Aitape, APR 44, 163rd INF;.......Wadke Island, MAY 44, 1/163rd INF;.......Humboldt Bay, APR 44, 41st DIV;........Tanamerah Bay, APR 44, 24th DIV;.......Korako, APR 44, 127th INF (-);.......Tumelo, Ali & Sileo Islands, APR 44, 3/127th INF;.......Biak, MAY 44, 186th INF;........Anamo, Yakamil, Biliany & Nyaparoke Islands, APR 44, Dets of 127th INF

CAROLINES
Anguar (Palau), SEP 44, 81st DIV (-);........Moemfoor, JUL 44, 158th INF & 503rd ABN;.........Morotai, SEP 44, 31st DIV

PHILIPINES
LEYTE: Suliran, Homonhon & Dinigat Islands, OCT 44, 6th RGR;.......Panaon Straits, OCT 44, 21st INF;........San Pedro Bay, OCT 44, 1st CAV DIV & 24th INF DIV;..........Dulag/San Pedro, OCt 44, 96th DIV & 7th DIV;........Barugo, OCT 44, 1/7th CAV;.......Ormoc Valley, NOV 44, 1/34th INF;........Ormoc Bay, DEC 44, 77th DIV;........Palompan, DEC 44, 305th INF

LUZON: Lingayen Gulf, JAN 45, 6th, 37th, 40th & 43rd DIV;.......Subic Bay, JAN 45, 149th, 151st & 152nd INF;.......Nasuabu Bay, JAN 45, 11 ABN DIV(-); .........Mariveles (Bataan), 151st INF;........Corregidor, FEB 45, 3/34th INF & 503rd ABN

VISAYAN PASSAGES: Mindoro, DEC 44, 24th DIV & 503rd ABN (8 total landings);.......Verde Island, FEB 45, 1/19th INF;........Lubang Island, FEB 45, 1/21st INF:.......Simana Island & Rombian Island, MAR 45, Dets/21st INF;.......Samar, Capul & Biri Islands, Mar 45, 1/182nd INF;.......Ticao Island, MAR 45, 1/132nd INF;........Masbate Island, MAR 45, 2/108th INF;........Burias Island, MAR 45, 132nd INF;.........Albany Gulf, APR 45, 158th INF;........Ragay Gulf, APR 45, 5th CAv (-)

OTHER PHILIPINE ISLANDS: Palawan, FEB 45, 186th INF;.......Zamboanga Pennisula (Mindanao), MAR 45, 41st DIV;........ Cebu City, MAR 45, Americal DIV;........Eastern Mindanao, MAR 45, 7th & 40th DIVs;........Sulu Archipelago, MAR 45, 41st DIV

CENTRAL PACIFIC
GILBERTS & MARSHALLS: Butaritari (Makin Atoll), NOV 43, 165th INF;........Kwajalien (Kwajalien Atoll), FEB 44, 27th DIV (+);.........Buton Island, FEB 44, 17th INF;..........Eniwetok, FEB 44, 106th INF

OKINAWA CAMPAIGN: Kerama Island, MAR 45, 77th DIV;........Keise Island, MAR 45, Dets/77th DIV;........Ie Shima, APR 45, Dets/77th DIV;........Okinawa, APR 45, 7th & 96th DIVs in conjunction with 1st & 6th MARDIV

Hope this is not too confusing. the Army was very busy with amphib ops in the Pacific. this list does not include follow-up Army units, only initial invasion units, also does not include majority of New Guinea campiagn and parts of Philipines (followup forces).

Ranger
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 07:12 PM UTC
Ranger--that is impressive. I downloaded and will use as a future reference.
Many thanks
DJ
Ranger74
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Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 10:44 PM UTC
210CAV - Thanks. Glad it can be of some use.
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 11:11 PM UTC

Quoted Text

210CAV - Thanks. Glad it can be of some use.



Ranger---I have dug through tons of material over the years and never came close to the comprehensive listing you provided.....how did you do it?
DJ
Ranger74
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Posted: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 12:47 AM UTC
I am a full-time employee of the Army Reserve. I represent the commander of a Medical Brigade on a daily basis. I researched and ordered most of the publications from the Chief, Military History for the unit library. The WW2 history collection has all the necessary data. Just got to read the maps and charts Plus I have read the entire WW2 history collection - one of my hobbies.
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 12:57 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I am a full-time employee of the Army Reserve. I represent the commander of a Medical Brigade on a daily basis. I researched and ordered most of the publications from the Chief, Military History for the unit library. The WW2 history collection has all the necessary data. Just got to read the maps and charts Plus I have read the entire WW2 history collection - one of my hobbies.



Jeff--well done. I use to advise an Army Reserve outfit in Maryland. Worst year of my life. Trust it improved since 1980.
thanks again
DJ
Ranger74
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Posted: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 10:46 PM UTC
DJ,

I joind the USAR in 1987, and since 1990 things have definitely changed, mostly for the better. The problem now is that the full-time manning can't keep up with the mobilization requirements. I now have to work harder than when I was on active duty

Jeff
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 03:55 AM UTC
Jeff--I think we beat this horse into the ground....let's move onto another subject
DJ