My Friends---What continues to amaze me is the number of authors who advocate that the German drive on Moscow could have succeeded. I believe it was doomed to fail from the start. There was just too much Russia and not enough Germans to mount a sustained winter campaign. The supply lines were streched and breaking. The weather was awful and the vehicles just could not survive in that environment. So, materially and physically the Moscow push was as big a waste as the entire concept of invading so vast a country as Russia.
DJ

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My Friends---What continues to amaze me is the number of authors who advocate that the German drive on Moscow could have succeeded. I believe it was doomed to fail from the start. There was just too much Russia and not enough Germans to mount a sustained winter campaign. The supply lines were streched and breaking. The weather was awful and the vehicles just could not survive in that environment. So, materially and physically the Moscow push was as big a waste as the entire concept of invading so vast a country as Russia.
DJ

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This is what happens to people who grow up in a relatively small country. They tend to not be able to comprehend the vastness of other areas. I saw on the History Channel a show about POWs. There was a German officer who thought that the Americans kept having the train he was on circling the same city with the various industrial scenes in the background. It took several days before he realized that they were different cities and he still wasn't even halfway across the country. Same deal with Russia, it's just too big to take AND hold. OK, drive to Moscow and take it. Now try to keep your lines of communication open and forces resupplied. Now watch the rest of the Soviet Union slowly mass around the city. It happened to most of the German forces in Russia, just change the name of the city to Stalingrad. That country was too huge.

I learned the same deal travelling in Texas. You drive for 8 hours straight, you are still in Texas and you've only moved 2" on the map. It is a vast area.

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i'm glad he did,it let the rest of us off the hook.
Arthur
Am Alba Mannich

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Art---until the Germans invaded Russia, the British were never going to be buddies with the USSR. Stalin was a bigger butcher than Hitler.
DJ

Hmm...so what you guys are saying is that size does matter?

hehe

Jim

Could of beat them if he had shown compassion as Stalin had not ,if the people would of seen a better life would they of fought as hard or would they of surrendered in droves as they did at the begining what 2 million pows in what 1 and half years. Don't forget the partisan activity and all the troops that are required to fight them off also. Take these factors into consideration also.

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Could of beat them if he had shown compassion as Stalin had not ,if the people would of seen a better life would they of fought as hard or would they of surrendered in droves as they did at the begining what 2 million pows in what 1 and half years. Don't forget the partisan activity and all the troops that are required to fight them off also. Take these factors into consideration also.

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Jeff-I could not agree with you more. The lunacy of special action groups inflaming people who would have welcomed something other than communism only adds to the tragedy. If you get a chance get ahold of "Battle for Berlin." The cruelty melted out by both sides to their enemies and to each other gives one pause for thought. Absolute madness.
DJ

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Could of beat them if he had shown compassion as Stalin had not ,if the people would of seen a better life would they of fought as hard or would they of surrendered in droves as they did at the begining what 2 million pows in what 1 and half years. Don't forget the partisan activity and all the troops that are required to fight them off also. Take these factors into consideration also.

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Jeff-I could not agree with you more. The lunacy of special action groups inflaming people who would have welcomed something other than communism only adds to the tragedy. If you get a chance get ahold of "Battle for Berlin." The cruelty melted out by both sides to their enemies and to each other gives one pause for thought. Absolute madness.
DJ

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Well, one thing here. Why would the Germans have acted differently? That's why we call them Nazis!

When the Germans first went into Russia, they were welcomed by much of the population. Problem is, Hitler was as evil as Stalin! That's why they were in Russia in the first place. They didn't go in as liberators! Those people were going to be slaves. Well, the lucky ones anyway. The 'undesireables' were to be burned up.

That's why Hitler sent in the SS lunatics, to find Jews so he could burn them. He wasn't interested in making friends. Remember, everything with him was race.

Look, Stalin was just as bad but, the reson the Russians became so savage is because of what the Germans (Hitler can only give the orders, not carry them out) had done to the civilian population.

I don't feel bad for the 'poor' Germans in this case.

Steve

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Could of beat them if he had shown compassion as Stalin had not ,if the people would of seen a better life would they of fought as hard or would they of surrendered in droves as they did at the begining what 2 million pows in what 1 and half years. Don't forget the partisan activity and all the troops that are required to fight them off also. Take these factors into consideration also.

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Jeff-I could not agree with you more. The lunacy of special action groups inflaming people who would have welcomed something other than communism only adds to the tragedy. If you get a chance get ahold of "Battle for Berlin." The cruelty melted out by both sides to their enemies and to each other gives one pause for thought. Absolute madness.
DJ

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Well, one thing here. Why would the Germans have acted differently? That's why we call them Nazis!

When the Germans first went into Russia, they were welcomed by much of the population. Problem is, Hitler was as evil as Stalin! That's why they were in Russia in the first place. They didn't go in as liberators! Those people were going to be slaves. Well, the lucky ones anyway. The 'undesireables' were to be burned up.

That's why Hitler sent in the SS lunatics, to find Jews so he could burn them. He wasn't interested in making friends. Remember, everything with him was race.

Look, Stalin was just as bad but, the reson the Russians became so savage is because of what the Germans (Hitler can only give the orders, not carry them out) had done to the civilian population.

I don't feel bad for the 'poor' Germans in this case.

Steve

Chiming in agian a little late, guys...been really busy. Great discussion; sorry I've missed so much of it. DJ is right; the obstacles are simply too great for an invasion of Russia to have truly been successful. That is, in terms of long-term holding of territory by the Germans. Sure, they had the ability to ovverun lots of European Russia (and did) but keeping it is different. I wonder: What if their objective wasn't so much to occupy the placeand colonize it as simply to deny it to the enemy? Might have been possible to mount successive campaigns several summers running whose purpose was to chase the Russians out and devastate the area--true scorched-earth raiding tactics like the Vikings might have tried.

Greg

Remember Russia was beat by two different people one the Mongols and second the tartars. Hell they were defeated in WW1 the treaty of Brest-Litovsk 1918

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Remember Russia was beat by two different people one the Mongols and second the tartars. Hell they were defeated in WW1 the treaty of Brest-Litovsk 1918

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Russia was a little different in those times than in 1941. Against the Mongols and Tartars it was considerably smaller in size and feudal. Another thought: these successful invasions came from the east and south, not west. Perhaps this makes a difference. By the time the Mongols reached the more populated areas, there wasn't very far for the Russians to run (Maybe the Japanese should have forgot Pearl Harbour and invade Russia through Kamchatka and Siberia instead!).
And despite what can be said of Stalin, his Five Year Plans did industrialize the Soviet Union substantially. Just look at the number of tanks and guns produced by the Soviets during the war (Incidentally, why did they need lend-lease equipment? Was this just early in the war?). Even the Communist system was more organized and had more support than the monarchy of 1914.
You are right though, Jeff, Russia could have been defeated. The problem was the Russians had a lot more fight in them than in previous wars.

Nic

And that, DJ, is a question that I can not answer.
Maybe it was just out of fear. Of course, in WWI they should have been afraid, but maybe Stalin had enough supporters (certainly on ideological grounds if not personal) that this worked for him.
Maybe out of hatred of the Germans. The Germans were massacring a lot of people and this didn't generally endear themselves to the Russians.

Nic

Well the so called orders were carried out by the troops yes mostly SS troops,but say you are a troop with the SS in WW2 and this is one of the elite orders of the German War Machine kind of like our Special Forces they will carry the orders out to the letter or face punishment which in those days of heightened fevor for the Fatherland would put them in disgrace and their family would suffer the same fate sort of like loosing face to a Samuri Warrior. Remember that things were different back 60 years ago then they are now no flag burning people and total loyalty to the Fatherland thru brain washing or whatever you might want to imply caused one man to have people carry these orders out without "Question". As for Stalin he murdered more of his own officers then the War killed,so the rest followed or ended up shot in the head in back of the Kremlin. I wish they would dig that place up God their must be 1000's buried around their. But back to question can't lump all the troops with the things the SS did as most of the soliders were Wehrmacht. Common troops that fought a lot of good decent battles and did not carry out no SPECIAL ORDERS.

Nic--I ponder that question ever time I hear Stephen Ambrose tell audiences that "American Democracy beat Hitler's Nazism." While true, why did the Germans hold on for almost a year after the invasion of Normandy? Fear will only stay with you so long. Those guys defended the Normany hedgerow country with the fanaticism of desperate men. I have been motivated and motivated others but never with fear of retribution. Interesting, how do you motivate people who are hanging on by their fingernails? The battles they wage with the Russia are mind boggling in that they hold off the hordes for such a great length of time....what do you think?
DJ

Maybe sometimes in life you DO have to make choices that may even cost your own life. Burn a bunch of women and children or maybe get burnt yourself. I don't buy the following orders excuese that everyone seems to give. Even in war there are some things that go beyond what is right and wrong, moral or immoral, even good and evil

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Maybe sometimes in life you DO have to make choices that may even cost your own life. Burn a bunch of women and children or maybe get burnt yourself. I don't buy the following orders excuese that everyone seems to give. Even in war there are some things that go beyond what is right and wrong, moral or immoral, even good and evil

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Yes my freind this is why they call it war was it right to FIREBOMB Dresden and kill100,00 plus people to get a few factories or drop Atomic Bombs on Japan to save American lives.And I don't agree that peole are still the same. Truman would of nuked the country of Afghanistan.

And yes if my country asked me to shoot women and chlidren in the head and they are the enemy of my country then yes I would do this. How many GIs in Vietnam were blown up by these women and children booby traps

Yes my freind this is why they call it war was it right to FIREBOMB Dresden and kill100,00 plus people to get a few factories or drop Atomic Bombs on Japan to save American lives.And I don't agree that peole are still the same. Truman would of nuked the country of Afghanistan.

And yes if my country asked me to shoot women and chlidren in the head and they are the enemy of my country then yes I would do this. How many GIs in Vietnam were blown up by these women and children booby traps

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Yes my freind this is why they call it war was it right to FIREBOMB Dresden and kill100,00 plus people to get a few factories or drop Atomic Bombs on Japan to save American lives.And I don't agree that peole are still the same. Truman would of nuked the country of Afghanistan.

And yes if my country asked me to shoot women and chlidren in the head and they are the enemy of my country then yes I would do this. How many GIs in Vietnam were blown up by these women and children booby traps

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Don't EVER compare the US military with the Nazis ande the SS. I also suggest you study more about the decision to drop the bomb. No, Truman would NOT have nuked Afghanistan were he President today. There's no need to even explain why this is no longer the option it was in '45.

I feel very bad for you indeed if you would actually even contemplate having to go out and shoot women and children. People who would do that are the ENEMY of my country!

The U.S. military has, and will continue, to make errors but they will NEVER be murderous pigs!

Steve