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Armor/AFV: IDF [Israeli Defense Forces]
Armor and AFVs of the IDF army from 1947-today.
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M113 & M109 Queries ...
pbennett
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2020 - 07:39 AM UTC
Would it be accurate to depict an A3 version of the M113 in IDF service? If so, when would these have been used?

Also, Steve Zaloga's book, 'Israeli Tanks and Combat Vehicles' includes a photograph of a Zahal M109 (the original short-barrelled version). I am aware that this type was replaced by the A1, but wondered how long the early version would have been in service.

Thanks,

Paul
HermannB
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2020 - 08:56 AM UTC
M109A3 is nothing but M109A1 with the long barrel. So we can assume that the IDF modified their A1 to A3 standard.
pbennett
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2020 - 09:35 AM UTC
Forgive the contradiction, but as far as I was aware, the A1 was the longer barrelled version of the original M109. My question regarded the Israeli use of the early version (M109).
zapper
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2020 - 10:29 AM UTC
Not a complete answer, but I haven't seen any plain M109s used by the IDF in Lebanon, 1982 and onward. The few I've seen are from the early '70s. I assume they were re-guned sometime after the October War in 1973.

Note that most (all?) IDF plain M109s seem to have a different muzzle brake than the US vehicles:






Cheers,
/E
2CAVTrooper
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2020 - 05:13 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Not a complete answer, but I haven't seen any plain M109s used by the IDF in Lebanon, 1982 and onward. The few I've seen are from the early '70s. I assume they were re-guned sometime after the October War in 1973.

Note that most (all?) IDF plain M109s seem to have a different muzzle brake than the US vehicles:






Cheers,
/E



From what I've seen, all of the Israeli M109A1's had the U.S. Spec muzzle brake fitted.

The bottom pic may have been a test vehicle mounting a similar 155 as the Soltam, or at least evaluated that muzzle brake design for use on their M109's
Vodnik
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2020 - 06:37 PM UTC

Quoted Text

M109A3 is nothing but M109A1 with the long barrel.



Errrmmm... Nope, it's not.

Only original M109 ("A0") had short barrel.

M109A1 is M109 with long barrel.

M109A2 also has the long barrel, but also has many other changes compared to M109A1, like revised ammo stowage in the turret (additional ammo stowage space at the rear of the turret - big box protruding from the turret rear wall), elimination of swim barrier and several other changes inside the vehicle. M109A2 were newly manufactured vehicles in the new specification.

M109A3 is functionally the same as M109A2, but it was upgraded from earlier M109A1, not newly built like M109A2. So M109A3 retained some external A1 features, like some of the brackets for swim barrier, not present on M109A2.

Not that it matters in this discussion anyway, as the OP question about A3 was related to M113A3, not M109A3....
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2020 - 08:18 PM UTC

Quoted Text



Not that it matters in this discussion anyway, as the OP question about A3 was related to M113A3, not M109A3....



I was waiting for someone to write that

Summary, two questions:
1. M113A3 in Israeli service. Did they use it, and in that case during which time period.
2. M109 in Israeli service. Established, but which time period

/ Robin
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2020 - 09:35 PM UTC

Quoted Text

M109 in Israeli service. Established, but which time period



The IDF received 24 short barrelled M109s during '70-'71. These were all on the Golan Heights when the Yom Kippur war broke out. One unit was later transferred to the Sinai front as the war progressed. According to some sources another 36 of this early variant arrived to Israel during and right after the war. All were later upgraded to A1.
zapper
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2020 - 10:32 PM UTC

Quoted Text


From what I've seen, all of the Israeli M109A1's had the U.S. Spec muzzle brake fitted.

The bottom pic may have been a test vehicle mounting a similar 155 as the Soltam, or at least evaluated that muzzle brake design for use on their M109's



Jeff,
We are discussing the original M109 with the short barrel, the one without any 'A' suffix.

Both my pictures are of the this first model. All but one IDF vehicle I have seen have the smaller size muzzle brake.

Cheers,
/E
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2020 - 10:38 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

M109 in Israeli service. Established, but which time period



The IDF received 24 short barrelled M109s during '70-'71. These were all on the Golan Heights when the Yom Kippur war broke out. One unit was later transferred to the Sinai front as the war progressed. According to some sources another 36 of this early variant arrived to Israel during and right after the war. All were later upgraded to A1.



When was the last remaining short barrelled M109 upgraded?
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2020 - 10:49 PM UTC

Quoted Text

When was the last remaining short barrelled M109 upgraded?



I believe by the mid-late '70s. By '82 the M109A1 was the standard artillery piece of the IDF.
zapper
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2020 - 10:59 PM UTC
Checked the Desert Eagle book on Rochev/Doher (no. 10). In the very brief history, Mass states that all M109s were converted to A1 standard in the late '70s.

Cheers,
/E
HermannB
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Posted: Monday, February 24, 2020 - 06:53 AM UTC
As for M113A3, the A3 standard is charaterized by a RISE engine and transmission, external fuel tanks and a spall liner protection for the crews. IDF developed their own standard on M113 that is different to US M113A3.
pbennett
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Posted: Monday, February 24, 2020 - 07:03 AM UTC
Thanks for the very informative responses … initially confusing, but I think I've found my answer to both questions.

Paul
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Monday, February 24, 2020 - 07:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

As for M113A3, the A3 standard is charaterized by a RISE engine and transmission, external fuel tanks and a spall liner protection for the crews. IDF developed their own standard on M113 that is differnt to US M113A3.



Although with over 6.000 units received everything is possible, this is pretty much my way way of thinking too. I mean this chap might still sit in Israel, but AFAIK never actually served in the IDF:



By '87, when the A3 came out, the IDF has been using the M113 family for 20 years. I believe by this time they were busy with their favourite past-time: tinkering with old equipment to upgrade them to their rather special needs.