login   |    register
Dioramas: Before Building
Ideas, concepts, and researching your next diorama.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Which comes first,...
Golikell
Visit this Community
Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Member Since: October 25, 2002
entire network: 1,311 Posts
KitMaker Network: 124 Posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2019 - 04:24 AM UTC
As far as I can see, by june 1944, a total of 518, out of 574 Fireflies were converted. They were introduced in active service with the 21st army in April/May/. Approximately 200+ were with units on D-day itself. So, yes, a firefly can be used.
Not sure about the Cromwell IV
Golikell
Visit this Community
Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Member Since: October 25, 2002
entire network: 1,311 Posts
KitMaker Network: 124 Posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2019 - 04:28 AM UTC
I just read that the 7th Armored division was mainly a Cromwell unit, though it had 36 fireflies, on the 30th of June 1944. So it might be safe to assume this mix was the same prior to D-day.
G-man69
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Member Since: October 17, 2017
entire network: 236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2019 - 04:55 AM UTC
Hi Brian,

I was thinking the Milliput route. If the weather tomorrow is as bad as it has been today, I might assemble one of the Tamiya figures and give it a go, Iíll also bear in mind the tissue/white glue option, plus Iíd been thinking roasting foil (or whatever itís called), .

The few articles Iíve seen regarding rain/recent rain or probably recent sleet to tie-in with my earlier thoughts (the latter is what Iíd probably go for) seem to suggest itís more about colours used. Obviously, wet groundwork can be suggested with puddles, etc.

Great tip about the orientation of weapons.

Thank you,

G
G-man69
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Member Since: October 17, 2017
entire network: 236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2019 - 04:57 AM UTC
Hi Erwin,

Thank you for the feedback, itís good news unless someone else suggests otherwise as itíll save me buying new kits, I have both already in my stash...plus itíll stop Ďshe who must be ignoredí from moaning about storage of boxes and their ability to collect dust...a double win, .

Cheers, ,

G
BootsDMS
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Member Since: February 08, 2012
entire network: 697 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2019 - 05:45 AM UTC
Gareth,

Erwin is spot on in that come the invasion 7th Armd was the only Division fully equipped with Cromwells; ie, all its constituent Brigades were equipped with it as well as the dispersal of Sherman Fireflies amongst the Regiments. This is important as you'll then be able to devise appropriate markings for your vehicles. Bear in mind that the Infantry you plan to deploy would not necessarily be from the same Division, given the vagaries of exercises and the relatively domestic scenario. Once you've identified the unit's vehicles and are happy with that remember that will also impact on the crews re colour of headdress etc.

Of course, should you wish to consider a couple of Churchills - 1 x being a gun tank - the other equipped with say, a 95mm - then these too would look good. If you wish to capture the times and events of the moment (of a Churchill equipped unit) I would recommend John Foley's "Mailed Fist" - probably a snip on Amazon; in this very readable paperback he relates the build up and associated exercises very well, and of course, the resultant invasion and fighting through NW Europe.

Re portraying wet paintwork and the like: most colours appear darker when wet but not necessarily shiny - in other words it may not be just to cover models in a gloss varnish (!) - but I am sure that Armorama contributors will all wade in with their usually helpful comments.

Re the "Stash": just hide it all in the attic; that's what I do and when my Zero Alpha suggests she visits the attic to get the Christmas decorations down, I always say" leave it oBi me dear". So far so good.


Brian
BootsDMS
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Member Since: February 08, 2012
entire network: 697 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2019 - 09:26 AM UTC
Funnily enough, Jerry Rutman's just done some figures wearing the groundsheet/cape; see his "Op EPSOM" post.

Groundwork and figures are of course, well up to Jerry's high standards and should provide inspiration.
G-man69
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Member Since: October 17, 2017
entire network: 236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2019 - 08:44 PM UTC
Hi Brian,

Unfortunately, I donít have an attic which would be awkward for Ďshe who must be ignoredí to gain access to, so itís more difficult to hide things, .

Thank you for backing up Erwinís comments, so I think I will use my Cromwell and Firefly kits. I do have a couple of AFV Club Churchill tanks, but theyíre a much more complicated build which I think will prove a tad tedious building two, especially with the overall challenge of the build.

Youíre right about the use of colour as opposed to shiny, thatís pretty much everything Iíve read on the subject, but puddles and other watery elements can be done using varnish, or other forms of artificial water.

Iíve just started Ďfollowingí the ĎOp Epsomí build, some excellent work, thanks for the heads-up on that.

Thanks again,

G
G-man69
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Member Since: October 17, 2017
entire network: 236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2019 - 10:25 PM UTC
Hi Brian,

I posted this question earlier, it wasn't originally aimed directly at you, but 'watchers' in general, but do you have a view?...

Iíve been trying to determine whether allied armour, but more specifically British tanks, would have been fitted with applique armour prior to D-day and whilst still in the UK? I have found images of the Sherman with the welded-on hull plates, but Iím thinking more of added tank tracks around the turret and on the glacis plate etc., or would such works only be carried out in field once they'd landed in Normandy?

I have tried Ďgooglingí but no real joy...could be Iím asking the wrong question though.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

G
Golikell
Visit this Community
Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Member Since: October 25, 2002
entire network: 1,311 Posts
KitMaker Network: 124 Posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2019 - 11:24 PM UTC
You're welcome. I used the Sherman Firefly book written by Mark Hayward as reference.


I might be completely wrong (and would love to be proven otherwise), but these extra tracks etc were as far as I know, field modifications, and not used in a domestic environment.
BootsDMS
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Member Since: February 08, 2012
entire network: 697 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 - 02:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Brian,

I posted this question earlier, it wasn't originally aimed directly at you, but 'watchers' in general, but do you have a view?...

Iíve been trying to determine whether allied armour, but more specifically British tanks, would have been fitted with applique armour prior to D-day and whilst still in the UK? I have found images of the Sherman with the welded-on hull plates, but Iím thinking more of added tank tracks around the turret and on the glacis plate etc., or would such works only be carried out in field once they'd landed in Normandy?

I have tried Ďgooglingí but no real joy...could be Iím asking the wrong question though.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

G



I suspect - and it's only a suspicion as I'm no WW2 expert, that the plates may well have been added prior to the invasion; perhaps as a result of North African/Tunisian/Italian experience, but I suspect the track shoes were only added as a result of hard won field experience. The efficacy of these (track shoes as armour) was discussed sometime ago within another topic but I can't remember which one.

Besides, if you add such stuff, you'll deny your models the chance of sporting some quite colourful markings once you've researched units etc.

Brian
G-man69
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Member Since: October 17, 2017
entire network: 236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 - 03:55 AM UTC
Hi all,

Thought itís time I stopped procrastinating and got things started, .

First off, I have started on the Tamiya Cromwell, Iím not going to do a step-by-step build as Iím sure itís been done many a time.

Plus, Tamiya kits tend to almost fall together straight from the box, but will post images on a regular basis as I progress (see photos below).









I have also started to rough-out my first attempt at a rain cape (see images below) so apologise that it looks very scrappy at this stage.













I've roughed it out using fine milliput, once it's cured properly I'll do some carving and sanding to tidy things up. I've chosen to work on the Tamiya Ammunition carrier, and fitted all his pouches, etc., Hence the bulky appearance around the chest area, .

I still have to add the collar and carve buttons etc., but at least the build proper is finally started.

Please feel free to comment as you feel fit.

Cheers, ,

G
G-man69
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Member Since: October 17, 2017
entire network: 236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 - 04:03 AM UTC
Hi Erwin,

Thanks for the feedback, that looks like an interesting book. I suspected that would be the case regarding applied spare tracks, which is a shame as I like my vehicles cluttered, .

Cheers, ,

G
BootsDMS
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Member Since: February 08, 2012
entire network: 697 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 - 04:07 AM UTC
Gareth,

Good for you - actually starting I mean; I generally ponce around and it takes me ages to commence a project. Then I tend to dither even further.

However, like the look but suspect it's a bit too short. If you Google "British Army WW2 Groundsheet" you'll see within any "Images" what I'm getting at. It had to be fairly long otherwise it wouldn't do its job. Nobody likes soggy knees Remember it's basically a rectangle so there will be evidence of "pointy" bits fore and aft.

While I'm at it, and I know it's early days, do factor in that the slings will need to be fitted, as I'm sure you're aware.

Brian
jrutman
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Member Since: April 10, 2011
entire network: 7,404 Posts
KitMaker Network: 6 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 - 04:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Gareth,

Good for you - actually starting I mean; I generally ponce around and it takes me ages to commence a project. Then I tend to dither even further.

However, like the look but suspect it's a bit too short. If you Google "British Army WW2 Groundsheet" you'll see within any "Images" what I'm getting at. It had to be fairly long otherwise it wouldn't do its job. Nobody likes soggy knees Remember it's basically a rectangle so there will be evidence of "pointy" bits fore and aft.

While I'm at it, and I know it's early days, do factor in that the slings will need to be fitted, as I'm sure you're aware.

Brian



Ditto on the groundsheet. Google was my friend for ref pics for once. I got nice results and even a video showing how to fold one! It was actually a rectangle with a triangular addition that includes the hood. It would go past the knees so some length is needed here.
J
Golikell
Visit this Community
Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Member Since: October 25, 2002
entire network: 1,311 Posts
KitMaker Network: 124 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 - 04:18 AM UTC
And cluttered it may be... Just not with tracks....
This picture is supposedly taken on the first of June, 1944.
Enough stuff on board to keep you happy

G-man69
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Member Since: October 17, 2017
entire network: 236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 - 04:18 AM UTC
Hi Brian,

You are in agreement, again, with Erwin, so I think that takes my preferred Ďclutteredí look out of the equation...darn, .

Iíve read a number of books where it suggests that the protection afforded by the tracks was more psychological than physiological, especially against conventional ballistic rounds, though it might possibly have helped against a panzerfaustÖthough Iím no expert, so take my comments with a pinch of salt, .

Regards,

G
G-man69
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Member Since: October 17, 2017
entire network: 236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 - 04:46 AM UTC
Hi Brian, hi Jerry,

Thanks both for your feedback, I can always make the rain cape longer if you both still think it should be after Iíve explained my thinking, .

I found the following three images, and it is these Iíve based my first attempt on.







The chap in the picture is wearing the cape without carrying packs and pouches. The images seem to suggest that the 'points' of the cape come down to approximately the knee. I therefore decided that the cape would ride much higher if it was draped over personal equipment, the more packs and pouches, the less long the cape would be when draped over.

With that in mind do you still think i need to increase the length?

Cheers, ,

G
G-man69
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Member Since: October 17, 2017
entire network: 236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 - 04:50 AM UTC
Hi Erwin,

A great picture, thank you, gives me enough food for thought, i'll just have to forego the 'tracks' idea, .

Cheers, ,

G

p.s. I've just ordered the book from Amazon, !
Golikell
Visit this Community
Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Member Since: October 25, 2002
entire network: 1,311 Posts
KitMaker Network: 124 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 - 04:54 AM UTC
Once again, you're welcome... You'll have no problems getting this past The Great Gate Keeper??
You'll find it very inspirational, with lots of info.
BootsDMS
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Member Since: February 08, 2012
entire network: 697 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2019 - 03:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Brian, hi Jerry,

Thanks both for your feedback, I can always make the rain cape longer if you both still think it should be after Iíve explained my thinking, .

I found the following three images, and it is these Iíve based my first attempt on.







The chap in the picture is wearing the cape without carrying packs and pouches. The images seem to suggest that the 'points' of the cape come down to approximately the knee. I therefore decided that the cape would ride much higher if it was draped over personal equipment, the more packs and pouches, the less long the cape would be when draped over.

With that in mind do you still think i need to increase the length?

Cheers, ,

G



Gareth,

I shouldn't think the Small Pack would displace it that much; after all, it's not as though it's akin to the packs issued today, ranging from a massive Bergen to a euphemistically called "Daysack" - still the size of a small country.

The Small Pack was around the size of a biscuit tin - I know this as we had to use same to "square" our packs away for locker inspection(!). The Cape/Groundsheet was a fairly voluminous garment designed after all, to provide some semblance of protection. Whilst due to the pack it might be a tad shorter at the rear, it would still be around the knees.

Keep at it - your builds are never dull.

Brian
G-man69
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Member Since: October 17, 2017
entire network: 236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2019 - 05:04 AM UTC
Hi Brian,

Thanks for your encouragement. I have been working on the Cromwell, but as previously mentioned, I'm not doing a step-by-step build as it's probably been done to death already, so intend to post some images of progress every couple of days or so.

I have also been trying to find some 'in action' images of the rain cape so I can gauge more how it should/would hang when worn in the field...as opposed to the pristine item worn by a 'model'.

I think I've spotted a glaring error in my representation already, I've modelled the two long pointed ends on opposite sides of the body, i.e. hanging left and right. Whereas, I'm beginning to think they should hang front and back on the left-hand side as worn...hence the need for some 'real' images, or even drawings, .

I'm amazed how hard it is to find such pictures, but I shall persevere, .

However, if you, or anyone else, can help point me in the right direction I would be very grateful, .

Thanks again,

G
G-man69
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Member Since: October 17, 2017
entire network: 236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2019 - 05:05 AM UTC
Hi Erwin,

The book arrived today, thanks for the tip, .

Cheers, ,

G
Golikell
Visit this Community
Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Member Since: October 25, 2002
entire network: 1,311 Posts
KitMaker Network: 124 Posts
Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2019 - 05:28 AM UTC
Good. Enjoy reading...
G-man69
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Member Since: October 17, 2017
entire network: 236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Friday, October 04, 2019 - 03:28 AM UTC
Hi all,

In between the sunny spells I have started the second tank to go with the Cromwell, the Tamiya/Tasca/Asuka Sherman Firefly (see images below).











The camouflage netting looks a tad strange at the moment as the diluted white glue is still wet, . I still need to add some netting to the barrel and over the weekend I'll add some 'hessian' scrim to the netting.

I will also add some netting/scrim to the hull when I get the opportunity, and will hopefully post some images of the progress of both the Firefly and the Cromwell at some point next week, .

Feedback, both constructive and critical, is always welcome.

Cheers, ,

G
Golikell
Visit this Community
Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Member Since: October 25, 2002
entire network: 1,311 Posts
KitMaker Network: 124 Posts
Posted: Friday, October 04, 2019 - 03:34 AM UTC
Setting off nicely. Although the rope looks a tad thick. What is the diameter?