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Dioramas
Do you love dioramas & vignettes? We sure do.
Operation Epsom,Normandy'44
Bonaparte84
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Hessen, Germany
Member Since: July 17, 2013
entire network: 310 Posts
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Posted: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 - 08:36 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Just excellence again, me likes this! Always love the backstory.

Jerry, I've long wondered about adding smaller scale subjects into the background of dios.
ex: A 1/16 figure in the foreground followed by 1/35 figures or vehicles to the rear, or a 1/32 aircraft followed by 1/72 in the distance etc. I suppose a conflict could be in bringing everything into the correct, believable focus as one image.

This is awesome, I'll be following along whenever time permits some serious lurking.

Cheers
Dave



Great work, Jerry, as usual!

Have been fantasizing about a dio with forced perspective for a long time.

Finding the correct distance is a problem. I guess several layers with different scales make it easier to fool the eye. In terms of scales, you also have 1/48, 1/56 from the wargaming stuff, 1/87 railroad modelling stuff, some 1/100 from Zvezda and some 1/144 from various brands. Combining all these scales plus the ones mentioned should allow for some awesome views, even in a relatively confined space.

For the forced perspective to work well, I believe that two more things are important.
1) Use uneven ground so as to hide the transition from one layer to the next. I believe it's impossible to do a smooth transition from one scale to the next. The actual seem can further be hidden by bushes/trees.
2) Strictly apply the scale effect when painting the vehicles (and everything else), i.e. as it gets a smaller scale, the overall color hues should get lighter and have less contrast between each other.

Maybe one day I'll get around to trying all of this out. Or others do it for me

Golikell
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Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Member Since: October 25, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 - 09:18 PM UTC

Quoted Text


These are farmers' fields,wheat and the like. That crop does grow kind of uniform or at least,the wheat fields near me do. The craters here very very minimal,according to testimony from a member of the 12SS,who endured this battle. The fuses were set on point detonation,for maximum schrapnel effects on Infantry. I have been on ranges in Germany that were just used and the craters were non-existent. There were,in Normandy,other times that involved large craters from Naval guns and from aerial carpet bombing,etc.,but not here.
Thanks for your comments,
J



Thanks for your reply. I was not aware of the limited impact on the terrain of the arty. A little more wisdom, for which I thank thee...
Paulinsibculo
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Overijssel, Netherlands
Member Since: July 01, 2010
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Posted: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 - 09:35 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Hi Jerry,
The painting of the figures and the atmosphere you create with it, is really top notch!
The painted fur, just looks like that, I'm affraid. In my opinion, it is too uniform, looking very artificial. Also, if they are advancing close behind a wall of artillery fire, wouldn't the terrain they advance through be churned by the impact of the shells



These are farmers' fields,wheat and the like. That crop does grow kind of uniform or at least,the wheat fields near me do. The craters here very very 6minimal,according to testimony from a member of the 12SS,who endured this battle. The fuses were set on point detonation,for maximum schrapnel effects on Infantry. I have been on ranges in Germany that were just used and the craters were non-existent. There were,in Normandy,other times that involved large craters from Naval guns and from aerial carpet bombing,etc.,but not here.
Thanks for your comments,
J



The most effective shelling of these kind of military units (weak, exposed bodies in an open field) would be done with time set fuses. They would explode approx. 50 - 30 meters above impact and create a fierce rain of hot, sharp shrapnel.
Any way, so far my input as an artyoff.
Remains to state (again) that mr. Rutman once again created a beautiful piece of modeling art.
Thanks for that, Sir!
jrutman
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Pennsylvania, United States
Member Since: April 10, 2011
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Posted: Thursday, September 26, 2019 - 01:29 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Grass is always greener eh? I guess a few longer stalks in the foreground would break it up a bit. My agricultural knowledge is below minimal but given normal farming schedules were somewhat disrupted on June 6th perhaps there’s an argument the fields wouldn’t have been as uniform as usual in the ensuing months? But Epsom started June 26th so the fields would have been nowhere near ready for harvesting anyway right?



You have the dates correct and the basic timeline concept as well with the crops. This is an experiment with creating a very large(for a dio anyway) field. I was looking for ways to do that without spending the whole months income on marketed grass mats,LoL.
I will try to put some odd longer wheat stalks in there,it's worth a shot. But a field like this does not get any"tending" as per your conjecture,they are just left to do what they do! They start green and then turn that wonderful golden color as they ripen.

Man o man,I am quite literally getting "down in the weeds" with this one! LoL
J
jrutman
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Pennsylvania, United States
Member Since: April 10, 2011
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Posted: Thursday, September 26, 2019 - 01:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Just excellence again, me likes this! Always love the backstory.

Jerry, I've long wondered about adding smaller scale subjects into the background of dios.
ex: A 1/16 figure in the foreground followed by 1/35 figures or vehicles to the rear, or a 1/32 aircraft followed by 1/72 in the distance etc. I suppose a conflict could be in bringing everything into the correct, believable focus as one image.

This is awesome, I'll be following along whenever time permits some serious lurking.

Cheers
Dave



Great work, Jerry, as usual!

Have been fantasizing about a dio with forced perspective for a long time.

Finding the correct distance is a problem. I guess several layers with different scales make it easier to fool the eye. In terms of scales, you also have 1/48, 1/56 from the wargaming stuff, 1/87 railroad modelling stuff, some 1/100 from Zvezda and some 1/144 from various brands. Combining all these scales plus the ones mentioned should allow for some awesome views, even in a relatively confined space.

For the forced perspective to work well, I believe that two more things are important.
1) Use uneven ground so as to hide the transition from one layer to the next. I believe it's impossible to do a smooth transition from one scale to the next. The actual seem can further be hidden by bushes/trees.
2) Strictly apply the scale effect when painting the vehicles (and everything else), i.e. as it gets a smaller scale, the overall color hues should get lighter and have less contrast between each other.

Maybe one day I'll get around to trying all of this out. Or others do it for me




Yes yes! All good observations there. I agree with every one. I have been wanting to build a perspective project for a long long time and first thought about doing one with aircraft,specifically FW190s attacking a B17 head on,seen through the front glazing of the bomber. Hopefully I will still tackle that one day.
I have already worked out some of the issues you brought forward but am reluctant to post the progress because it may be in the book deal and so I am kinda constrained right now.
Thanks for your kind words and comments!
J
jrutman
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Pennsylvania, United States
Member Since: April 10, 2011
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Posted: Thursday, September 26, 2019 - 01:37 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


These are farmers' fields,wheat and the like. That crop does grow kind of uniform or at least,the wheat fields near me do. The craters here very very minimal,according to testimony from a member of the 12SS,who endured this battle. The fuses were set on point detonation,for maximum schrapnel effects on Infantry. I have been on ranges in Germany that were just used and the craters were non-existent. There were,in Normandy,other times that involved large craters from Naval guns and from aerial carpet bombing,etc.,but not here.
Thanks for your comments,
J



Thanks for your reply. I was not aware of the limited impact on the terrain of the arty. A little more wisdom, for which I thank thee...



You had it partially correct,because there would be some marks on the ground,just no craters. The angle of my photos would not really show the marks If I were to make them,so I saved myself some work!
It's all good in the hood,
J
jrutman
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Pennsylvania, United States
Member Since: April 10, 2011
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Posted: Thursday, September 26, 2019 - 01:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Hi Jerry,
The painting of the figures and the atmosphere you create with it, is really top notch!
The painted fur, just looks like that, I'm affraid. In my opinion, it is too uniform, looking very artificial. Also, if they are advancing close behind a wall of artillery fire, wouldn't the terrain they advance through be churned by the impact of the shells



These are farmers' fields,wheat and the like. That crop does grow kind of uniform or at least,the wheat fields near me do. The craters here very very 6minimal,according to testimony from a member of the 12SS,who endured this battle. The fuses were set on point detonation,for maximum schrapnel effects on Infantry. I have been on ranges in Germany that were just used and the craters were non-existent. There were,in Normandy,other times that involved large craters from Naval guns and from aerial carpet bombing,etc.,but not here.
Thanks for your comments,
J



The most effective shelling of these kind of military units (weak, exposed bodies in an open field) would be done with time set fuses. They would explode approx. 50 - 30 meters above impact and create a fierce rain of hot, sharp shrapnel.
Any way, so far my input as an artyoff.
Remains to state (again) that mr. Rutman once again created a beautiful piece of modeling art.
Thanks for that, Sir!



Yes,you are correct for sure and as a redleg you would know best. I kinda wonder about that here though as the British were firing the 25 pounders,etc at a very high rate of fire,a few rounds per minute per gun and also after a lingering barrage on the German positions they shifted fire and began "walking" the barrage to the rear of those positions. I am wondering how effective the fuze setters could actually be given those circumstances? It had to be done manually with the fuze wrench as the pozit fuze didn't get out till around the BoB time period.
Hohenstaufen
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England - South East, United Kingdom
Member Since: December 13, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, September 26, 2019 - 10:59 AM UTC
You have grass dead right Jerry, take no notice! I've seen loads of photographs of this battle and that's just how it looks. Maybe the length hides the craters, I don't know, but that's just how it looks. I've also seen photos of Scottish Regiments being played up to the start lines of Epsom by pipers. But significantly they are wearing full BD, not kilts as in the "Scotland the Brave" set issued by was it Miniart?
jrutman
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Pennsylvania, United States
Member Since: April 10, 2011
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Posted: Friday, September 27, 2019 - 01:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

You have grass dead right Jerry, take no notice! I've seen loads of photographs of this battle and that's just how it looks. Maybe the length hides the craters, I don't know, but that's just how it looks. I've also seen photos of Scottish Regiments being played up to the start lines of Epsom by pipers. But significantly they are wearing full BD, not kilts as in the "Scotland the Brave" set issued by was it Miniart?



Thanks for the support buddy!
I have seen those pics as well in the excellent book by Bernage on Epsom. Really great shots showing all the action before and during the Op,including the famous one of the munitions truck blowing up after a hit my 12SS mortars.
I had considered the bag piper but I think that may have occurred earlier than my scene here,as you said,when they moved up to the start line.
I would really love to include a piper somewhere in the upcoming sequence but also didn't want to get too full of "cliche" either?? On the other hand,it would be historically accurate and documented in period pics as well!
The quandary,the quandary.
J
jrutman
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Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Friday, September 27, 2019 - 06:01 AM UTC
Catching 2 hours sleep before the attack south of Les Mesnil Patry.

cheyenne
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New Jersey, United States
Member Since: January 05, 2005
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Posted: Saturday, September 28, 2019 - 12:24 AM UTC
Nice scene Jerry , I really don't know how you could have portrayed this any better or different than this ....... oh and I've seen many photos of pipers involved in this action too .

jrutman
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Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Saturday, September 28, 2019 - 02:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Nice scene Jerry , I really don't know how you could have portrayed this any better or different than this ....... oh and I've seen many photos of pipers involved in this action too .




WOW!!! Beautiful and evocative pic!! I have more than a few showing advancing through the wheat but this is a nice clear one of one of the cornfields mentioned in anecdotes from the Vets. This may well be showing the advance on the British right flank,the location of the story I am telling. Fairly flat farmfields with slight undulation in the topography,dotted with small woodlots and lines of brush. Nothing like the hedgerow country,which they get into after crossing the Caen,Fonteney road.The 2Glasgow had Churchills in support as well,with AT guns and mortars on the right flank.
Thanks for posting man. Where did this gem come from ??
J
cheyenne
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New Jersey, United States
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Posted: Saturday, September 28, 2019 - 02:29 AM UTC
A very secret , rare , little know place called google , sorry man couldn't resist .....
smydi01
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Scotland, United Kingdom
Member Since: October 14, 2009
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Posted: Saturday, September 28, 2019 - 03:49 AM UTC
Lovely work as always.
There is pics and info on the link below that may be of use to you.

http://ww2today.com/26-june-1944-epsom-scottish-troops-v-12th-ss-panzer-hitlerjugend
jrutman
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Posted: Saturday, September 28, 2019 - 05:57 AM UTC

Quoted Text

A very secret , rare , little know place called google , sorry man couldn't resist .....


I use the evil empires' services frequently but with mixed results. Nowhere as good as Frenchie in that regard.
J
jrutman
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Posted: Saturday, September 28, 2019 - 05:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Lovely work as always.
There is pics and info on the link below that may be of use to you.

http://ww2today.com/26-june-1944-epsom-scottish-troops-v-12th-ss-panzer-hitlerjugend


Thanks a lot for the linky buddy!
Nothing new as far as pics go for me but that personal anecdote at the end was brilliant! I love stories like that,they generally drive all my dio ideas.
J
jrutman
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Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Monday, September 30, 2019 - 08:33 AM UTC
I am starting to blend in the muddy parts with the green parts. I couldn't resist putting the guys in for a test shot.
Two hours of rest in the drizzle before the start of Op. Epsom

justsendit
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Colorado, United States
Member Since: February 24, 2014
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Posted: Monday, September 30, 2019 - 08:42 AM UTC
That looks fantastic!🤩

—mike
G-man69
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England - South West, United Kingdom
Member Since: October 17, 2017
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Posted: Monday, September 30, 2019 - 09:06 PM UTC
Hi Jerry,

Outstanding work, I was recommended to your build log as I was thinking of building a diorama that contained figures wearing rain capes...you've given me some good inspiration.

I'm looking forward to following this build.

Cheers, ,

G
jrutman
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Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 - 01:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text

That looks fantastic!🤩

—mike


Thanks man!
J
jrutman
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Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 - 01:29 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Jerry,

Outstanding work, I was recommended to your build log as I was thinking of building a diorama that contained figures wearing rain capes...you've given me some good inspiration.

I'm looking forward to following this build.

Cheers, ,

G



Thanks for the kind words man!
I have another figure under way wearing a ground sheet/poncho so stay tuned. Lots of work remains to be done on this one.
J
Sean50
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Manche, France
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Posted: Wednesday, October 02, 2019 - 06:48 AM UTC
Hello Jerry

I meant to reply to this earlier but work has go in the way recently. Anyway, smashing job with the figures, especially the resting guys. You've captured the rather damp nature of Normandy perfectly!

Excellent stuff, as ever. Really looking forward to your book project.

Cheers

Sean
jrutman
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Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2019 - 01:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hello Jerry

I meant to reply to this earlier but work has go in the way recently. Anyway, smashing job with the figures, especially the resting guys. You've captured the rather damp nature of Normandy perfectly!

Excellent stuff, as ever. Really looking forward to your book project.

Cheers

Sean



Thanks Sean,glad you liked it buddy!
Don't let work over power you man.
J
jrutman
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Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2019 - 06:32 AM UTC
got some more putty work done on this next guy. Sleepy guard.









Moving on.
J
jrutman
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Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2019 - 10:41 AM UTC
even though all are exhausted,somebody has to be on guard!











J