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Armor/AFV
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Artillery Types
18Bravo
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Posted: Monday, April 15, 2019 - 11:58 AM UTC
Here's a little something you can use:



Armorsmith
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Posted: Monday, April 15, 2019 - 12:23 PM UTC
Pardon my ignorance, but exactly what is that chart about?
panamadan
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Posted: Monday, April 15, 2019 - 12:34 PM UTC
direct fire is much simplier. Dan
HeavyArty
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Posted: Monday, April 15, 2019 - 01:14 PM UTC
It is an artillery "Safety T". It shows the maximum and minimum QE (Quadrant Elevation - vertical angle of barrel) and DF (DeFlection - horizontal angle of barrel) for each type of round and fuze to be fired at a specific firing point, FP415 in this case, w/an elevation of 305 meters above sea level, when firing charge 4 Green Bag, low angle. As long as your settings are between the max and min QE at the given DFs, your round will land safely in the impact area. If it is greater or less than the given QE or to the right or left of the given DF, you are firing out of safe (out of the established impact area/safety box) and possibly jeopardizing someones life.
trickymissfit
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Posted: Monday, April 15, 2019 - 03:24 PM UTC

Quoted Text

It is an artillery "Safety T". It shows the maximum and minimum QE (Quadrant Elevation - vertical angle of barrel) and DF (DeFlection - horizontal angle of barrel) for each type of round and fuze to be fired at a specific firing point, FP415 in this case, w/an elevation of 305 meters above sea level, when firing charge 4 Green Bag, low angle. As long as your settings are between the max and min QE at the given DFs, your round will land safely in the impact area. If it is greater or less than the given QE or to the right or left of the given DF, you are firing out of safe (out of the established impact area/safety box) and possibly jeopardizing someones life.



I have shot my share of direct fire out of a 155, and I learned the art from a Korean War vet. Anything over 2000 yards is guess work unless targets are pre-registered.
A good rule of the thumb is to put the barrel in a negative elevation on a charge one or even three green bag. You learn where the round goes off from playing the game. Two thousand yards is charge three territory. The trick is to be good at estimating the climb of the round during flight. If the gun moves an inch during recoil, you get to start using KY windage. Plus you can't see a thing after dark.
Two hundred yards and less is actually easier once you learn the game. I've shot WP with a charge one and one to one and a half secounds on a 565 fuse. First round scares you to death! You get used to it.
Gary
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 - 12:03 AM UTC
Right, but the Safety T is not used for direct fire. It is used for indirect fire.
thathaway3
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Posted: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 - 06:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

direct fire is much simplier. Dan



Any decent gunner should be able to hit a target they can see. Hitting a target 12+ km from your position that the gunner CAN'T see, now THAT's gunnery
panamadan
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Posted: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 - 06:21 AM UTC
Yes, thatís why itís simpler
trickymissfit
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Posted: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 - 09:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

direct fire is much simplier. Dan



Any decent gunner should be able to hit a target they can see. Hitting a target 12+ km from your position that the gunner CAN'T see, now THAT's gunnery



Really harder than you think. The sight works off aiming stakes posted to the rear normally, while your looking elsewhere. Usually just look thru the bore of the tube, and guess from there! That's why you try to pre-register targets well ahead of time.
18Bravo
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Posted: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 - 10:37 AM UTC
Most guns fire digitally now. Even one one niners. Aiming stakes are only for firing degraded. Paladin chiefs I know only throw out the collimator for show, and don't even have aiming stakes in their BII.
18Bravo
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Posted: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 - 11:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text


I have shot my share of direct fire out of a 155, and I learned the art from a Korean War vet. Anything over 2000 yards is guess work unless targets are pre-registered.
A good rule of the thumb is to put the barrel in a negative elevation on a charge one or even three green bag. You learn where the round goes off from playing the game. Two thousand yards is charge three territory. The trick is to be good at estimating the climb of the round during flight. If the gun moves an inch during recoil, you get to start using KY windage. Plus you can't see a thing after dark.
Two hundred yards and less is actually easier once you learn the game. I've shot WP with a charge one and one to one and a half secounds on a 565 fuse. First round scares you to death! You get used to it.
Gary



Things do change over time.

Direct Fire

11-32. Direct fire is a special technique that demands a high level of training and requires the howitzer
section to operate as an independent unit. Considerations for the use of direct fire include trajectory, target
type, and ammunition.

11-33. Trajectory characteristics change with respect to range to target and charge fired. To produce the
highest muzzle velocity and a flat trajectory, always use the maximum charge available. Shorter ranges are
the most accurate to engage a target, because the trajectory is flattest. Intermediate ranges provide a
trajectory flat enough to allow direct estimation of range without actually bracketing the target.

ATP 3-09.50
MAY 2016
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 - 12:22 PM UTC
WOW! I'm glad you guys were/are on OUR side!!!
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 - 01:40 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Things do change over time.

Direct Fire

11-32. Direct fire is a special technique that demands a high level of training and requires the howitzer
section to operate as an independent unit. Considerations for the use of direct fire include trajectory, target
type, and ammunition.

11-33. Trajectory characteristics change with respect to range to target and charge fired. To produce the
highest muzzle velocity and a flat trajectory, always use the maximum charge available. Shorter ranges are
the most accurate to engage a target, because the trajectory is flattest. Intermediate ranges provide a
trajectory flat enough to allow direct estimation of range without actually bracketing the target.

ATP 3-09.50
MAY 2016



Well, maybe not so much:

Section II. DIRECT LAYING, GENERAL

29. General

a. Firing by direct laying is a technique that demands special training. The section must operate as an independent unit.

. . .

32. Conduct of fire

b. Ammunition and Fuzes.

. . . When using high explosive shell, charge 7 is used habitually for speed, ease in adjustment, imparting forward motion to fragments, and more effective fuze action.

FM 6-74
March 1954

KL
18Bravo
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Posted: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 - 02:20 PM UTC
My post was in response to Tricky's, who suggested charge 1G or 3G. For one, there is no longer any such thing as a 1G. Lowest green bag charge is 3G. Charge 8 (as the latest ATP recommends highest available) is almost always used for direct fire. Again, things change from his day. Hell, we've even gone from yards to meters since then, apparently.

And the original purpose of beginning this thread, which I typed underneath the image but somehow got deleted before I hit send, is that I can't recall ANY dioramas featuring a safety T, although they should figure prominently in every one. At a minimum the section chief has one taped to the left trail. Ideally the gunner has one taped near him, and so does the AG.
So you can print these on scale DIN A4 paper (generally oriented vertically) or you could make a little "show me board" and have the data hand written in permanent marker. In fact, hand written data on the paper safety T would be more appropriate than printed. Not everyone takes a printer to the field.
trickymissfit
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Posted: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 - 08:59 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


I have shot my share of direct fire out of a 155, and I learned the art from a Korean War vet. Anything over 2000 yards is guess work unless targets are pre-registered.
A good rule of the thumb is to put the barrel in a negative elevation on a charge one or even three green bag. You learn where the round goes off from playing the game. Two thousand yards is charge three territory. The trick is to be good at estimating the climb of the round during flight. If the gun moves an inch during recoil, you get to start using KY windage. Plus you can't see a thing after dark.
Two hundred yards and less is actually easier once you learn the game. I've shot WP with a charge one and one to one and a half secounds on a 565 fuse. First round scares you to death! You get used to it.
Gary



Things do change over time.

Direct Fire

11-32. Direct fire is a special technique that demands a high level of training and requires the howitzer
section to operate as an independent unit. Considerations for the use of direct fire include trajectory, target
type, and ammunition.

11-33. Trajectory characteristics change with respect to range to target and charge fired. To produce the
highest muzzle velocity and a flat trajectory, always use the maximum charge available. Shorter ranges are
the most accurate to engage a target, because the trajectory is flattest. Intermediate ranges provide a
trajectory flat enough to allow direct estimation of range without actually bracketing the target.

ATP 3-09.50
MAY 2016



I have shot plenty of sub three hundred yards direct fire using HE and WP. Best way we found was to fire two rounds from two howitzers close to each other ( usually WP with a time fuse). This is followed with two rounds of HE from two guns directly behind the first two. WP gets their attention and HE finishes the problem. Of course if they are really close (150 feet or less) you can load charge seven with no projo. That works pretty good but you only penetrate about fifty feet. I can assure you that if you cannot fire five or six rounds in a minute, you're gonna be in a bag at the end of the day.
Gary
trickymissfit
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Posted: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 - 09:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Things do change over time.

Direct Fire

11-32. Direct fire is a special technique that demands a high level of training and requires the howitzer
section to operate as an independent unit. Considerations for the use of direct fire include trajectory, target
type, and ammunition.

11-33. Trajectory characteristics change with respect to range to target and charge fired. To produce the
highest muzzle velocity and a flat trajectory, always use the maximum charge available. Shorter ranges are
the most accurate to engage a target, because the trajectory is flattest. Intermediate ranges provide a
trajectory flat enough to allow direct estimation of range without actually bracketing the target.

ATP 3-09.50
MAY 2016



Well, maybe not so much:

Section II. DIRECT LAYING, GENERAL

29. General

a. Firing by direct laying is a technique that demands special training. The section must operate as an independent unit.

. . .

32. Conduct of fire

b. Ammunition and Fuzes.

. . . When using high explosive shell, charge 7 is used habitually for speed, ease in adjustment, imparting forward motion to fragments, and more effective fuze action.

FM 6-74
March 1954

KL



It's not for the faint of heart! My first time was on an OP with the 101st. We had an Infantry squad and maybe a 150 bad guys making a probe. Three guns shot WP with one second on a charge one. Followed with the same using HE. Slowed them to a halt, but most of all gave us fifteen seconds. At A102 we had them inside the wire every night, and just just WP (no infantry and maybe seventy of us). It will cause you age, and your shorts are ruined in thirty seconds. Wait till they come at you from two or three directions!
Gary
panamadan
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Posted: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 - 09:40 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

direct fire is much simplier. Dan



Any decent gunner should be able to hit a target they can see. Hitting a target 12+ km from your position that the gunner CAN'T see, now THAT's gunnery



Really harder than you think. The sight works off aiming stakes posted to the rear normally, while your looking elsewhere. Usually just look thru the bore of the tube, and guess from there! That's why you try to pre-register targets well ahead of time.



I'm talking tanks.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 - 12:20 PM UTC

Quoted Text

My post was in response to Tricky's, . . .



And I was noting that not much had changed between 1954 and 2016, even the general wording is nearly the same.

KL
18Bravo
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Posted: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 - 12:35 PM UTC
Wording may be similar.

"Things" (I know how you like improper use of quotes and parenthesis) equals
1. Charges (no more 1 Green Bag)
2. Meters vice Yards
3. Highest Charge Possible (8) vs. 1G or 3G

TTP's have obviously changed quite a bit based on his recollection.