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The year of Shermans? Meng
berwickj
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Posted: Saturday, April 13, 2019 - 07:54 AM UTC
I just hope the kit comes with upswept return rollers. I'm pretty sure no M4A3 76(w) had the straight return rollers.

John
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Saturday, April 13, 2019 - 08:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I just hope the kit comes with upswept return rollers. I'm pretty sure no M4A3 76(w) had the straight return rollers.

John



Hi, John!

Actually, photographic evidence shows that MANY different M4-series Tanks could be equipped with EITHER the Early or Later type of Return Roller Brackets, but usually not on the same Tank at the same time.

IMO, I think that it would be wise for MENG to issue their new M4A3 76mm (Wet) kits with BOTH styles, following suit to TAMIYA, ACADEMY, DRAGON and TASCA/ASUKA. I believe that ITALERI and TESTORS/ITALERI were really the only model companies that issued their Shermans and Sherman-based kits with only the later-style Return Roller Brackets. I really wouldn't have any fears over that if I were you...
m4sherman
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Posted: Saturday, April 13, 2019 - 09:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Not sure about those "torsion bars" on a Sherman, but my guess about the track is they could be using an engineering plastic like Tamiya used on its Mk IV WWI tank so they aren't as breakable as styrene. Time will tell...


That baffled me as well, but then I noticed the suspension springs are shiny, and could very well be metal. They just translated the name wrong?
m4sherman
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Posted: Saturday, April 13, 2019 - 09:13 AM UTC

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I just hope the kit comes with upswept return rollers. I'm pretty sure no M4A3 76(w) had the straight return rollers.

John



Hi, John!

Actually, photographic evidence shows that MANY different M4-series Tanks could be equipped with EITHER the Early or Later type of Return Roller Brackets, but usually not on the same Tank at the same time.

IMO, I think that it would be wise for MENG to issue their new M4A3 76mm (Wet) kits with BOTH styles, following suit to TAMIYA, ACADEMY, DRAGON and TASCA/ASUKA. I believe that ITALERI and TESTORS/ITALERI were really the only model companies that issued their Shermans and Sherman-based kits with only the later-style Return Roller Brackets. I really wouldn't have any fears over that if I were you...



I agree with both of you. However, the earliest production tank known (that I know of) M4A3 76mm Gun Tank, Champagne, ex-Free French, had upswept return rollers.

I'm thinking they are hedging their bets, and some early M4's are in the works.
m4sherman
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Posted: Saturday, April 13, 2019 - 09:29 AM UTC

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When it comes to interior bits among kits, the Sherman is among the least well served. How many T-34, pzkpfw IV have full machine guns? Yet Sherman (other than the ancient Italeri kits) all have stub barrels. I think the only large scale Sherman with a 75mm gun breach was the Monogram kit from the 1970s.



Actually, the now old Tamiya early M4 kit (35190) comes with a 75mm gun breach, guard, and radio. Rather basic parts though. Many newer German armor models come with much of the turret interior, even if they are not interior kits. We need the same for our Shermans.

I am curious about the part of the description that states "High strength workable tracks with duckbill end connectors". Are they some super plastic? Metal? It will be interesting to find out.



Hi, Randall!

I was going to post something similar to what you did, regarding the old TAMIYA 35190 M4 kit- You beat me to it, so that's OK, too...

Re: The Tracks of the new MENG M4A3 76mm (Wet)- I should think that a set of metal Tracks a la FRIULISMO would be too expensive, unless MENG plans to sell this kit in the $100.00 + USD neighborhood. Anyone price metal Track sets lately..? One needs to arrange a second mortgage on the house in order to afford metal Tracks any more...

ONE of my guesses would be that these new SUPER-DUPER "High-Strength Workable Tracks" COULD be conventional styrene plastic "Indy-link" Tracks, molded in upper and lower Track Pad halves, a la BRONCO; these COULD possibly utilize ONE-PIECE cast-metal(?) Track Pins/Track End-Connectors/Track Guides of some sort, SANDWICHED between the upper and lower Track Pad halves..? This would give the Tracks more strength, but this is only ONE possibility. IMO, by MENG producing these new Tracks in this fashion would also seem to be an unduly expensive way for MENG to manufacture ANY of the various types of Sherman VVSS-style Tracks. HVSS-style Tracks are of a totally different design, and I would think that MENG could manufacture them by more conventional means.

It would also seem, to me anyway, that MENG would be better-off if they just cast the Tracks in ONE-PIECE METAL Indy links, with the Track Pins cast integrally at the ends of the Track Pads. Cast metal Track End-Connectors/Track Guides could possibly be attached to the Pads by "press-fit"... Yes, no, maybe..?

IF MENG discovered some "High-Strength" specially-formulated plastic, there is STILL the question of the End-Connectors/Track Guides which would necessarily have to be manufactured separately, in order connect the VVSS-style Track Pads- Wouldn't it be cheaper for MENG just to come up with a better-formulated "DS"-style PLASTIC and manufacture conventional but nearly universally-detested "Rubber-Band" Tracks..?

HOWEVER, one wonders what EXACTLY could constitute, or justify the 1200 + parts count..? My money is on some form of "Indy-Links" AND an INTERIOR...

Opinions..?



I have all the hopes for an interior!

I got a set of the Master Club VVSS Sherman tracks just to see what they are like. The set comes with 180 track pads and 360 end connectors. A standard M4 had 78 per side, or 156, times the end connectors gives us 468 track parts. If Meng makes the track like Master Club (which is what I would do if I had the money etc.), but in plastic, with maybe a metal pin, then they would have a winner. Just testing a few links makes me want more of the Master Club tracks for my VVSS tanks. Now I'll wait and see what Meng comes up with.
barkingdigger
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Saturday, April 13, 2019 - 12:54 PM UTC

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Not sure about those "torsion bars" on a Sherman, but my guess about the track is they could be using an engineering plastic like Tamiya used on its Mk IV WWI tank so they aren't as breakable as styrene. Time will tell...



Which "Torsion Bars" are you referring to..? ON a Sherman..? There WAS however, at least ONE M4A2 which was tested with a six-Double-Road Wheel (per side) Torsion-Bar Suspension, using wider 24-inch Tracks, Sprockets and Rear Idlers. The HVSS-type Suspension was adopted, instead...



Hi Dennis,

The link to the poster has "workable track" and "workable torsion bars" written on it! Of course, the actual subject M4A3 VVSS doesn't have any torsion bars, but as stated by others it may be a mis-translation for the bogie arms and springs...
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Saturday, April 13, 2019 - 08:41 PM UTC

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Not sure about those "torsion bars" on a Sherman, but my guess about the track is they could be using an engineering plastic like Tamiya used on its Mk IV WWI tank so they aren't as breakable as styrene. Time will tell...



Which "Torsion Bars" are you referring to..? ON a Sherman..? There WAS however, at least ONE M4A2 which was tested with a six-Double-Road Wheel (per side) Torsion-Bar Suspension, using wider 24-inch Tracks, Sprockets and Rear Idlers. The HVSS-type Suspension was adopted, instead...



Hi Dennis,

The link to the poster has "workable track" and "workable torsion bars" written on it! Of course, the actual subject M4A3 VVSS doesn't have any torsion bars, but as stated by others it may be a mis-translation for the bogie arms and springs...



Yeah, that's probably what happened...

I think that I would like to try an extensive conversion on an "early" M4A2 kit, in order to come up with that Sherman-type with the Torsion Bar Suspension...

BTW, there is a photo of that critter, (3/4-view, left front), in the "Peter Chamberlain & Chris Ellis Pictorial History Of TANKS OF THE WORLD 1915-45" book, on page U.S.A. 179, photo 74, captioned, "M4A2 with 24in tracks and torsion bar suspension"...

This M4A2 is the earlier-type, with the 56-degree (Dry) "small hatch" Hull, "Low Bustle" Turret, and the 75mm Main Gun. There's SOMETHING about the aesthetics of this Sherman-type that appeals to me and intrigues me...
barkingdigger
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Posted: Saturday, April 13, 2019 - 11:21 PM UTC
Sounds good! I think I've seen a pic of the beast at some point - there was a lot of experimentation that we don't often see. If you build it, you have to post it here!
Bravo1102
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Posted: Saturday, April 13, 2019 - 11:46 PM UTC

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Not sure about those "torsion bars" on a Sherman, but my guess about the track is they could be using an engineering plastic like Tamiya used on its Mk IV WWI tank so they aren't as breakable as styrene. Time will tell...



Which "Torsion Bars" are you referring to..? ON a Sherman..? There WAS however, at least ONE M4A2 which was tested with a six-Double-Road Wheel (per side) Torsion-Bar Suspension, using wider 24-inch Tracks, Sprockets and Rear Idlers. The HVSS-type Suspension was adopted, instead...



Hi Dennis,

The link to the poster has "workable track" and "workable torsion bars" written on it! Of course, the actual subject M4A3 VVSS doesn't have any torsion bars, but as stated by others it may be a mis-translation for the bogie arms and springs...



About 20 years ago when AFV-Club did their VVSS suspension set it was advertised as having working torsion bars which referred to the bogie arms.

As for the high strength workable tracks? That probably refers to a snap together track that doesn't pop apart when you look at it cross eyed. A lot of times with transliteration in addition to translation it's not the actual words as opposed to the intended meaning that counts.

Meng is doing a first production M4A3 76mm which just like first M4A1 and M4A2 76mm could have had the straight arms. The first ones were produced along side 75mm tanks not instead of, the M4A1 line was totally switched over very soon. There's a whole lot of mix and match in Sherman minutiae and the watch word is "Never, say NEVER" You'll proclaim it didn't exist and up will pop a photo of it or worse yet an existing example.

Just like I found an example of a remanufactured M4A1 in NW Europe with the original top return roller bogies. It shouldn't exist. Applique armor and a M34A1 mantle and original bogies. But... but... There's another shot of a tank with a mix of the top return roller and trailing return roller bogies.

And road wheels were always mixed. I've seen one Sherman with a mixture of open spoke, solid spoke and solid dished road wheels. Another reason I like Academy kits. They give all three types in many of their Sherman kits so you can mix and match.
errains
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Posted: Sunday, April 14, 2019 - 12:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

"M4A2 with 24in tracks and torsion bar suspension"...



.....Koolness



chefchris
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Posted: Sunday, April 14, 2019 - 01:58 AM UTC
I never said this was a M4A2, just that I would like to see one next. I am well aware of other manufacturers making kits of it. Slow down.....

Chris
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Posted: Sunday, April 14, 2019 - 03:45 AM UTC

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I never said this was a M4A2, just that I would like to see one next. I am well aware of other manufacturers making kits of it. Slow down.....

Chris



Hi, Chris!

A misunderstanding, that's all... No harm intended!

Let's hope that MENG will follow suit with more M4 Medium-series kits, ESPECIALLY the earlier types...
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Sunday, April 14, 2019 - 03:49 AM UTC

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"M4A2 with 24in tracks and torsion bar suspension"...



.....Koolness






THANK YOU, ERIC!

This IS the critter; you've supplied a slightly different photo of it from another angle...
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Sunday, April 14, 2019 - 03:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Sounds good! I think I've seen a pic of the beast at some point - there was a lot of experimentation that we don't often see. If you build it, you have to post it here!



I'll have to get a digital camera with a USB port, first!
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Sunday, April 14, 2019 - 04:30 AM UTC

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Not sure about those "torsion bars" on a Sherman, but my guess about the track is they could be using an engineering plastic like Tamiya used on its Mk IV WWI tank so they aren't as breakable as styrene. Time will tell...



Which "Torsion Bars" are you referring to..? ON a Sherman..? There WAS however, at least ONE M4A2 which was tested with a six-Double-Road Wheel (per side) Torsion-Bar Suspension, using wider 24-inch Tracks, Sprockets and Rear Idlers. The HVSS-type Suspension was adopted, instead...



Hi Dennis,

The link to the poster has "workable track" and "workable torsion bars" written on it! Of course, the actual subject M4A3 VVSS doesn't have any torsion bars, but as stated by others it may be a mis-translation for the bogie arms and springs...



About 20 years ago when AFV-Club did their VVSS suspension set it was advertised as having working torsion bars which referred to the bogie arms.

As for the high strength workable tracks? That probably refers to a snap together track that doesn't pop apart when you look at it cross eyed. A lot of times with transliteration in addition to translation it's not the actual words as opposed to the intended meaning that counts.

Meng is doing a first production M4A3 76mm which just like first M4A1 and M4A2 76mm could have had the straight arms. The first ones were produced along side 75mm tanks not instead of, the M4A1 line was totally switched over very soon. There's a whole lot of mix and match in Sherman minutiae and the watch word is "Never, say NEVER" You'll proclaim it didn't exist and up will pop a photo of it or worse yet an existing example.

Just like I found an example of a remanufactured M4A1 in NW Europe with the original top return roller bogies. It shouldn't exist. Applique armor and a M34A1 mantle and original bogies. But... but... There's another shot of a tank with a mix of the top return roller and trailing return roller bogies.

And road wheels were always mixed. I've seen one Sherman with a mixture of open spoke, solid spoke and solid dished road wheels. Another reason I like Academy kits. They give all three types in many of their Sherman kits so you can mix and match.



Hi, Steve!

A LOT has been, and still IS lost in translation and transliteration, which has caused all kinds of "messes" through the ages...

As to photos, and THIS may be of interest to all our fellow Sherman-fans; if ANYONE out there has the older SQUADRON "In Action #2016 book, "SHERMAN in action", by Bruce Culver, check out the full-page photo on page 3. If I may quote the caption on page 2,

"Vehicles of the 752nd Tank Battallion, attached to the Fifth Army, wait in the Plaza Emanuel, Bologna, Italy near the end of the war. Even at this late date, 21 April, 1945, there is an ancient early production M4 [4th from the right, front row] still retaining its direct vision slots in the glacis plate. Note the variety of vehicles, including M5A1 light tanks and M18 tank destroyers, and the difference in crew stowage and fitting details."

In addition, I would like to say that all of the M4-series types in this photo seem to have the welded hulls, i.e, no cast-hull M4A1s, and there also seems to be a pleasant mix of 75mm and 76mm-type tanks in the mix! They ALSO seem to be sporting a variety of US National Markings, to boot!

I do so WISH that this photo had been taken in color film, (maybe it was, but the author and publisher only had a black & white image to work with?), if only to prove to the "Panzer-Clique" that ALL Shermans WERE NOT painted in TAMIYA XF-62 Olive Drab...


What Steve mentioned about the extra suspension and wheel parts in the 1/35 ACADEMY kits is true; some of the older SHANGHAI DRAGON/DML kits also included these parts, but ACADEMY's were/are better-executed. DRAGON AND ACADEMY Shermans, (I'm not going to include ITALERI's) have been pooh-poohed for various reasons in favor of the TASCA/ASUKA kits, which I won't go into now. TAMIYA's E8s and the Israeli types? They're good too, but they have their faults, as well. I like ALL FOUR sets of manufacturers, and now it seems that TWO more manufacturers will be adding grist to the Sherman mill.

"Not enough variety!!!" says the "Panzer-Clique"- Those guys DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT...
Bravo1102
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Posted: Sunday, April 14, 2019 - 04:36 AM UTC

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"M4A2 with 24in tracks and torsion bar suspension"...



.....Koolness






THANK YOU, ERIC!

This IS the critter; you've supplied a slightly different photo of it from another angle...



Even has it's own specific designation M4A2E4. The suspension looks similar to the T20E3 which would put it in the line of development to the M26.

Personally I'd love to see the whole T20, T23 series in plastic to go with the German wartime prototype kits that are trickling out.
panamadan
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Posted: Sunday, April 14, 2019 - 05:02 AM UTC

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I just hope the kit comes with upswept return rollers. I'm pretty sure no M4A3 76(w) had the straight return rollers.

John



Hi, John!

Actually, photographic evidence shows that MANY different M4-series Tanks could be equipped with EITHER the Early or Later type of Return Roller Brackets, but usually not on the same Tank at the same time.

IMO, I think that it would be wise for MENG to issue their new M4A3 76mm (Wet) kits with BOTH styles, following suit to TAMIYA, ACADEMY, DRAGON and TASCA/ASUKA. I believe that ITALERI and TESTORS/ITALERI were really the only model companies that issued their Shermans and Sherman-based kits with only the later-style Return Roller Brackets. I really wouldn't have any fears over that if I were you...


Dennis, large hatch 'A3 should only have upswept return roller brackets.
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/manufacturer/m4a376w/m4a3_76w.html

Dan

JavierDeLuelmo
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Posted: Sunday, April 14, 2019 - 05:56 AM UTC
Puzzling, with all the superb books and info around on Shermans, we have Meng still making errors, at least in their CADs. A lack of research and attention to basic details I hope they correct before releasing this kit.
Belt_Fed
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Posted: Sunday, April 14, 2019 - 06:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Puzzling, with all the superb books and info around on Shermans, we have Meng still making errors, at least in their CADs. A lack of research and attention to basic details I hope they correct before releasing this kit.



I have messaged Meng on their Facebook page about the issue and was told that they will announce more information about the kit next week. I'm not sure what that means but I hope they correct it.
Cantstopbuyingkits
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Posted: Sunday, April 14, 2019 - 07:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Puzzling, with all the superb books and info around on Shermans, we have Meng still making errors, at least in their CADs. A lack of research and attention to basic details I hope they correct before releasing this kit.



M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Sunday, April 14, 2019 - 07:24 AM UTC

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I just hope the kit comes with upswept return rollers. I'm pretty sure no M4A3 76(w) had the straight return rollers.

John



Hi, John!

Actually, photographic evidence shows that MANY different M4-series Tanks could be equipped with EITHER the Early or Later type of Return Roller Brackets, but usually not on the same Tank at the same time.

IMO, I think that it would be wise for MENG to issue their new M4A3 76mm (Wet) kits with BOTH styles, following suit to TAMIYA, ACADEMY, DRAGON and TASCA/ASUKA. I believe that ITALERI and TESTORS/ITALERI were really the only model companies that issued their Shermans and Sherman-based kits with only the later-style Return Roller Brackets. I really wouldn't have any fears over that if I were you...


Dennis, large hatch 'A3 should only have upswept return roller brackets.
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/manufacturer/m4a376w/m4a3_76w.html

Dan




Dan- EXCEPT in the FIELD, where FIELD-EXPEDIENCY is the rule... Thanks for your note, BTW!
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Sunday, April 14, 2019 - 07:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text


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"M4A2 with 24in tracks and torsion bar suspension"...



.....Koolness






THANK YOU, ERIC!

This IS the critter; you've supplied a slightly different photo of it from another angle...



Even has it's own specific designation M4A2E4. The suspension looks similar to the T20E3 which would put it in the line of development to the M26.

Personally I'd love to see the whole T20, T23 series in plastic to go with the German wartime prototype kits that are trickling out.



AGREE...

Re: The designation M4A2E4- Sorry that I didn't catch that. The photo in my book is A LOT smaller, and my old Mk.I eyeballs just aren't what they used to be...
ALBOWIE
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Posted: Sunday, April 14, 2019 - 09:01 AM UTC

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I just hope the kit comes with upswept return rollers. I'm pretty sure no M4A3 76(w) had the straight return rollers.

John



Hi, John!

Actually, photographic evidence shows that MANY different M4-series Tanks could be equipped with EITHER the Early or Later type of Return Roller Brackets, but usually not on the same Tank at the same time.

IMO, I think that it would be wise for MENG to issue their new M4A3 76mm (Wet) kits with BOTH styles, following suit to TAMIYA, ACADEMY, DRAGON and TASCA/ASUKA. I believe that ITALERI and TESTORS/ITALERI were really the only model companies that issued their Shermans and Sherman-based kits with only the later-style Return Roller Brackets. I really wouldn't have any fears over that if I were you...



Whilst you are correct and the parts are interchangeable i have yet to see a 47 deg large hatch M4A3 with anything other than Upswept Return roller support arms.
Al
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Sunday, April 14, 2019 - 09:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm also waiting for a Sherman with interior, in specifically the HVSS variants. Having the T-34/85 interior from AFV and the Tiger I from RFM, the Sherman is on the very top of my wish list.

On the subject about the versions, the M4A2 76W HVSS (or M4A2E8 76) was used to replace the Sherman Grizzly I as the training vehicle, and Canadian tankers then used the M4A3 76W HVSS during the Korea War (according to the vet at my tiny local museum). Even though it was only training vehicle, it is still somewhat nice to have.

Im not sure if the Soviet did get the HVSS variant of the M4A2 76W or not because most of the info give me the VVSS variant. I do know that the Russia has some M4A2 76W HVSS in museum, though, I hear that they are savaged around the world and from bottom of the sea.

The M4A1 76W HVSS was used by the French and some 3rd world countries.


Fisher Tank Arsenal switched over fully to the HVSS by January, 1945, but the four-month turnaround from factory floor to front line meant that the M4A2 76 W HVSS (M4A2E8) missed the war in Europe. The Soviets did send them to the Far East to engage the Japanese in August, 1945, and several were photographed there, but reportedly. they saw no combat.
panamadan
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Posted: Sunday, April 14, 2019 - 10:34 AM UTC
[quote]
Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I just hope the kit comes with upswept return rollers. I'm pretty sure no M4A3 76(w) had the straight return rollers.

John



Hi, John!

Actually, photographic evidence shows that MANY different M4-series Tanks could be equipped with EITHER the Early or Later type of Return Roller Brackets, but usually not on the same Tank at the same time.

IMO, I think that it would be wise for MENG to issue their new M4A3 76mm (Wet) kits with BOTH styles, following suit to TAMIYA, ACADEMY, DRAGON and TASCA/ASUKA. I believe that ITALERI and TESTORS/ITALERI were really the only model companies that issued their Shermans and Sherman-based kits with only the later-style Return Roller Brackets. I really wouldn't have any fears over that if I were you...


Dennis, large hatch 'A3 should only have upswept return roller brackets.
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/manufacturer/m4a376w/m4a3_76w.html

Dan




Dan- EXCEPT in the FIELD, where FIELD-EXPEDIENCY is the rule... Thanks for your note, BTW! [/quote

Do you have a photo of one? I've never seen one.
Dan