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Paint & Finish
For automotive paint and finishing topics.
Hosted by Damian Rigby
High Gloss Finishes - a how-to video
Mechworker
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Posted: Saturday, April 14, 2018 - 08:38 PM UTC
One of the most difficult things to do when building car kits is getting the finish right. Iíve had a lot of tough times trying to get things sanded and polished to make my cars look right. Iíve tried a bunch of stuff and some of it worked, and some of it didnít. I thought it was just me that was having a hard time, but apparently thatís not the case.

At our local modelling club, we do presentations once a month on different skill sets. I was asked by the club members if I could do a demonstration on how I do car finishes. I was more than glad to share what Iíve found out with my fellow club members. The presentation was even recorded for posting online afterwards!

If you would like to check it out and see how I get my Chevettes and Volares looking like I do, please feel free. Any comments, as always, are welcome!

https://adamrehorn.wordpress.com/2018/04/15/the-medium-and-fine-and-ultra-fine-is-the-message/
AussieReg
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AUTOMODELER
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Posted: Sunday, April 15, 2018 - 08:43 AM UTC
Great video Adam, some really useful tips in there. Good to put a face and voice to the reviews now as well.

Cheers, D
Szmann
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Netherlands Antilles
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Posted: Sunday, April 15, 2018 - 07:28 PM UTC
Well done, Adam!

I just spent a load of elbow grease on my truck's fenders...

KUTGW!

Cheers!
Gabriel
WIggus
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Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2018 - 08:49 PM UTC
That is a great presentation Adam. Thank you so much for taking the time to tell us about it. Tons of great info there!

I'm working on my first car in a LONG time; a build for my brother. Until I watched your presentation I assumed that the Tamiya polish and the Future did not work together at all. But now I see otherwise.

I used Tamiya acrylic paint. Then I did many thin coats of Future for the gloss coat. It probably sat for a couple weeks waiting for my Tamiya polishes to arrive. As soon as I touched the Tamiya polish to the Future coat, the Future dissolved right down to the paint.

Why did it have to be the roof??!! :-) A cool effect for a junkyard car, but not what I was going for.

Do you think that my Future was not completely dry, or perhaps a reaction between the Tamiya paint and the Future that slowed it's curing time greatly?
Mechworker
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Posted: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 - 05:18 AM UTC
Hello Wiggus:

Thanks for the compliments, and I'm glad the video gave you some information that might be useful.

I feel very badly for you because of your paint issue, but it sounds somewhat familiar. My brother worked really hard to convert the Revel Starsky and Hutch Torino into a replica of our dad's "Super Value Package"-equipped car that we had since I was born, and kept until 1991. We all loved that car, and he did a tonne of work on the kit.

He painted it with some oil silver and some Tamiya red (for the vinyl top). After the Future was on, he dried in in a dehydrator (standard for us) and then he noticed, a bit after that, that it was all cracked. The paint looks like it had spiderwebbed, but not that finely. To me, it looks like little worm tracks in the car's finish.

The same thing happened to me when I used Tamiya green for a custom Omni I built years ago. It was great when I was done, but a couple of months later, I noticed a similar issue of cracking in the paint.

I've never had the Tamiya polishing compounds chemically attack the Future, and this is what I think has happened:

1.) The Tamiya paint over which you put the Future may not have been totally, chemically dry. Putting Future over it prevents it from outgassing, and can cause problems.

2.) Your Future was likely not totally dry. I have sanded right through Future to the paint below, and in surprisingly short order, if the Future isn't TOTALLY dry. That's why I bake it a couple of days, lightly sand it until you can smell it again, then dry it (in the dehydrator, always) before trying any more sanding.

Even if it seems dry on the surface, Future can be "wet" underneath. It takes AGES to dry, and until it is dry, there's always a threat of something like what you had happen occurring.

If Future isn't BONE DRY all the way through, it will tear very easily.

It will be tough to recover your roof, for a couple of reasons, but it can be done!

A couple of things:

1.) If you use Acrylic paints (incl. Tamiya) then make sure your thinner has Future in it. I've found Future bonds to itself really well, and makes paint very tough, even though it slows overall "through drying" time. I use a 1:2 mixture of Future and 99% Isopropyl Alcohol to make airbrush thinner. it works on all kinds of acrylics, and is the only thinner I've found that works well for Model Master Acrylics.

2.) If you use Acrylics, use Model Master acrylics (MMAs). Tamiyas (and some others) are "acrylic", but they have a very reactive carrier. You can smell it; a Tamiya paint smells "chemical-y", but an MMA just smells a bit like some kind of house paint. It's less toxic smelling. That means it's more chemically neutral, I've found.

MMAs have other advantages, too. If fortified with "blow" (what I call my Future-alcohol thinner) they become very hard. They also don't react with themselves or other paints, unlike Tamiyas. Also, they don't change colour when airbrushed or hand-brushed, which makes them ideal for touching up.

Also, like you've seen, Tamiyas that weren't shot with "Blow" tend to have some issues getting along with Future. If Future is in the thinner, then the Future will help bond the paint to the gloss coat.

A better way:

I've found the Aqua Gloss to be the best. It is TOTALLY chemically neutral on all paints I've seen, and, when heated, dries SUPER FAST. It's also SUPER HARD. It can also be used as airbrush thinner, but it's not as "thin" or fast-drying as "blow-shot" paint.

To recover your roof, I can only suggest this.

1.) make sure all the paint is really dry. Get a dehydrator if you have to. Bake it for like a week+ at 42 degrees Celcius (about 113=ish Fahrenheit).

2.) Apply some Aqua Gloss (AG) if you can get it. Apply several coats of Future (lightly, and separated by drying sessions of about 8+hours in the dehydrator PER LAYER) if you can't.

If you use the AG, go moderately heavy, bake for a few hours, then go really as heavy as you can. Bake for another 5-7 hours and repeat.

After 2-3 days (not overnight, but like, 15h/day) in the dehydraytor. Don't take it out even when you're not running it. Also, put a few small bottles/jars of water in the dehydrator. They'll absorb heat and help to moderate the cool-down a bit once it's turned off.

3.) Now try sanding the roof, as I did in the video.

I hope it will work out for you man, and that my rather long-winded explanation helps out.

Let me know how it goes!
KoSprueOne
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Posted: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 - 06:09 AM UTC
Adam, Thanks for sharing this information in text and video. Very helpful.




WIggus
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Posted: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 - 10:33 PM UTC
Thanks for your kind reply. I am going to get some Aquagloss when I have the chance. Will Pattison also speaks highly of it.

I have some Model Master Acryl Gloss Clear.
Do you have any experience with it?
Mechworker
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Posted: Thursday, May 03, 2018 - 04:43 AM UTC
Hi Wiggus!

You're welcome, and I hope some of the info will be of help. The AquaGloss, from what little experience I have, is AWESOME.


Quoted Text

I have some Model Master Acryl Gloss Clear.
Do you have any experience with it?



Oh... yes... yes I do. I used to gloss coat all my Gundams. Mind you, that was by hand, and that was old formulation MMA gloss.

However, RUN!!! In my experience, it is HORRIBLE. I love MMA paints, but the MMA gloss is .

I find it yellows, horribly, if allowed to get dusty at all. It also tends to turn brown if there's any build up of it at all (like say, in corners), even if the build up isn't visible when it's clear. I call this "rusting". I have multiple Gundams that are "rusty" because of MMA Gloss.

Personally, I would dump it and keep the jars. I actually ordered 6 jars of it through a now-defunct shop here in down, and then discovered Future. I have never even cracked open the 6-bottle pack I ordered.

My take: It will definitely ruin your kit. If not today, then tomorrow. If you can keep it completely dust free, then you're okay (like if it's in a tight display case), but don't risk it.

Good luck with the AquaGloss!
WIggus
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Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2018 - 05:19 PM UTC
Ha! OK... thanks for the warning.
Is the MMA Flat Coat of equally despicable quality? :-)
Mechworker
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Posted: Tuesday, May 08, 2018 - 07:37 AM UTC
I would say Yes! to that.

I remember trying to use some, and it wasn't even that flat.

WIggus
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Posted: Monday, June 11, 2018 - 06:08 AM UTC
Adam,
I have had a revelation, an answer to the problem I was having, and a slap to the forehead. As we know, good old Future hasn't been called Future in a long time. And as I understand the formulation even varrys from one country to the next due to environmental laws, etc.

In the states it's been called Pledge Floor Care Finish. I picked up a bottle about a year ago. Or thought I did. Upon closer inspection I had bought Pledge Floor Care Mop and Shine! Not the same thing at all! The bottle is identical and the fluid is completely clear. The label is even identical, except for "Finish" or "Mop and Shine" in small lettering underneath Pledge Floor Care.

No wonder I've had so much trouble with it. It actually worked OK for dipping aircraft canopies, and I have even weathered over it. But as I saw, Tamya polish ate it right away, and it also reacted with MicroSol on decals (it left a cloudy haze). It was never that glossy either, although it worked OK for a satin or eggshell finish.

Saturday I went in search of the real thing, and it appears that J&J have AGAIN changed the name in the USA. It seems to now be called Pledge Revive. I'm curious if the name changed in Canada too?
Mechworker
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Posted: Monday, June 11, 2018 - 12:07 PM UTC
Oh man... I had no idea there was a non-Future version of that product. Darn... that's nasty! That does explain it though!

I haven't looked for it in a while: I have a few bottles, and that should last about 5 years or more. It likely has the same name in Canada as the US though!

Glad you got the real thing, and good luck (better luck at least) with it!

md72
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Posted: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 - 07:46 AM UTC
Adam, Thanks for sharing this. I'm a plane builder by custom, but I'm at the finishing stage on at least 1 car. This is great stuff.