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Armor/AFV
For all military ground-force modelling subjects.
Filters, Panel Lines, Washes, Oils = ???
Trisaw
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California, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 - 03:58 AM GMT+7
I mostly got out of enamel paints and switched to acrylics many years ago because I don't want to use mineral spirit thinners anymore.

I do have pigments and acrylic washes that I have used. I also have water and thinner based oil tubes that I have not used (yet).

Now I'm seeing that several companies have made enamel washes, filters, panel line paints, weathering, and gime and streaking products that look really great on painted models.

Without spending a fortune, what is the difference and for AFV, Sci-Fi, and figure modelers, which should I invest in if I were to buy some enamel weathering products? Do I need to buy mineral spirit thinner or can I use the weathering enamel paints straight from the jar?

Can Panel Line paint also be used for streaking, weathering, and rust? Should I buy enamel filters instead of washes? Should I buy an enamel weathering set instead? Are all these weathering sets necessary or can I bypass some? Are any necessary, or can I just stick with my acrylics and pigments?

Thanks in advance.
Biggles2
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Posted: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 - 04:15 AM GMT+7
I go the cheapest way possible - I buy artist's tube oils and dilute with thinner. One large tube of oil paint lasts several lifetimes!
Trisaw
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Posted: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 - 04:18 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

I go the cheapest way possible - I buy artist's tube oils and dilute with thinner. One large tube of oil paint lasts several lifetimes!



Some companies make water-soluble oils...would that work the same way?

Any why oils? Do they flow better than acrylics? I heard that oil paints tend to take days to dry, hence that could be a problem with smudging and fingerprints...true?
DrButterfingers
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Posted: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 - 06:25 AM GMT+7
I used water-MIXABLE oils and found them to be lacking. W&N had the line I used and I found the pigments were not as fine and they did not perform washes as well - until I used their dedicated thinner and fast-=drying medium that will have to come from the art store. They brush painted less well than traditional oil paints for figure faces etc.

I use traditional oils with Liquin or other fast drying medium and the washes are dry within a few hours. The mediums are under-appreciated in the model community as they can really alter properties of the paints. Usually have to get them from very large art stores or online (Blick / Utrecht have an overwhelming variety).

We use so little paint it can pay to have high quality oils for things like umber and various blacks. The pigment quality is much better than student oils. I get the small tubes which do not end up being economical but you know...
firstcircle
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Posted: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 - 06:58 AM GMT+7
The enamel based washes and filters are of course essentially thinned enamel paints. That's not to say that buying them is pointless, as you may like the convenience of them being ready thinned, and if they become too thick you can just keep adding thinner.

You can just buy eg. Humbrol enamels and make your own of course, though one thing I would say is that not all thinners are the same, and I find some tend to separate from the paint and you get a kind of curdling (which doesn't happen with the premixed products). Ironically I found the Ammo odourless thinner doing this recently when mixed with black enamel and switched to Winsor & Newton odourless, which seems OK from that point of view, although slightly less odourless...

Humbrol enamels are great for panel lines, pin washes etc. because you can adjust the paint, like with oils, as it is curing, but it applies more easily, I find.
On oils taking long to dry, I agree with the comment above about using Liquin, and in addition of you place the oil paint on absorbent card to draw the oil out, then use thiiners and Liquin, you'll find that it will dry reasonably quickly. It may remain removable for days however, depending on the surface, so if on a glossy surface you may well need to apply varnish before adding any other layers on top, so as not to disturb the oil layer.

I must say that I share your dislike of mineral spirits, with even the odourless type seeming quite noxious, and probably bad for one's health. However it seems that for certain effects it remains the best thing there is. In the winter it can be a problem getting enough ventilation in your house, and I can't get into the idea of wearing a vapor mask or sitting painting for hours in the garage... I already do those things for airbrushing.

Your question about sticking with acylics, I haven't, despite trying, managed to satisfactorily use acrylics, even with retarder, and trying various thiiners, to do the same kind of effects that I can manage with oils or enamels.
Belt_Fed
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Posted: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 - 08:36 AM GMT+7
The benefit of the oil-based weathering products is that they are pre-thinned and of a certain tone. This is more of a convenience thing. Rather than having to mix and match certain colors and thinners, you just shake the jar, open them up, and ready to begin weathering.

Oils and enamels behave similarly, but have a few differences as well. Enamels dry much quicker, so your working time is not as long. The pigment size depends on the manufacturer. Overall I find oil paints are easier to blend. I have never had a problem lifting previous oils or enamel effects after giving them 24 hours to dry.

While the convenience of the enamels is nice, oil paints give you much more versatility. The viscosities of the paints offer so many possibilities, to filters, washes, streaks, paint chips, oil and grease stains, the list is endless. They can even be hand brushed and blended for certain effects.

As far as toxicity, I believe oil paints are a more healthy option. I cannot confirm this, but oils are basically pigment mixed with an oil-based carrier, and weathering enamels have a lot more "stuff" in them, such as stabilizers. The odorless thinners sold in the hobby industry are not as toxic as something like Humbrol enamel thinner, I believe.

Overall, as a modeler with extremely limited space, the versatility of a few tubes of oil paints outweighs the convenience of a rack full of weathering enamels in my opinion. I find them easier to work with and give just as good results as the premixed stuff. While a tube of oil paint is a little more expensive, the tubes last a VERY long time.

For more information about working with oils, I recommend Michael Rinaldi's Tank Art books, as well as "Mastering Oils" published by 502 Abteilung.

As far as acrylic weathering products- I dont recommend them. They dry to easily and are tricky to blend. They also look much different when they are wet than when they are dry. I also do not think they are any less toxic than oils and thinners. Your mileage may vary.
Biggles2
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Posted: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 - 12:22 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text

I heard that oil paints tend to take days to dry, hence that could be a problem with smudging and fingerprints...true?


It's true that oil paints take forever to dry, but when diluted with oderless mineral spirits, they will dry overnight - the mineral spirits evaporate quickly and leave the oil-based pigments. It's almost impossible to smudge or get fingerprints with an oil wash, because a wash will not retain fingerprints, and you can always brush over the area if you think you have left any prints. A dry brush can be used to blend or soften the remaining pigments. Acrylic washes, on the other hand, even though drying fast, a difficult to remove or manipulate when they are dry.
Scarred
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Posted: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 - 12:53 PM GMT+7
It seems that no matter what you use, oils or enamel, you will need some type of thinner. Even if it's just to clean your brush. Pre-mixed or mix your own will require thinners and I can't see spending money on something that I can, and have for decades, mix myself.
DocEvan
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Posted: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 - 04:20 PM GMT+7
You can do every one of those effects in acrylics. Filters are just a fancy and more time consuming way of making mottled tones that break up the monotony of a planar space. One of making a filter simply airbrush a lighter shade over the color coat. OR mix some acrylic retarder with some paints and use them in the same manner as with the oil tube paints.

"Without spending a fortune, what is the difference and for AFV, Sci-Fi, and figure modelers, which should I invest in if I were to buy some enamel weathering products? Do I need to buy mineral spirit thinner or can I use the weathering enamel paints straight from the jar?"


Not familiar with this, but it sure sounds like a wash. Don't know about the effects it could make other than washes and streaks.

"Can Panel Line paint also be used for streaking, weathering, and rust?

Personally, I don't think that it's needed, especially since you'd need to stock up on enamels again.

"Should I buy enamel filters instead of washes? Should I buy an enamel weathering set instead? Are all these weathering sets necessary or can I bypass some? Are any necessary, or can I just stick with my acrylics and pigments?"
Kharkov
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Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 - 05:48 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

I go the cheapest way possible - I buy artist's tube oils and dilute with thinner. One large tube of oil paint lasts several lifetimes!



This ^^

One trip to a local artists shop can/will set you up for life with all the weathering products you will ever need, it just kinda depends on how you choose to paint.

joepanzer
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Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 - 05:53 AM GMT+7
With the oil paints, you can go to the hardware store and get something called Japan Dryer. It speeds up drying time, with the caveat that you can't put it on thick coats-it will cause cracking.