login   |    register
Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Loading SSys Schwerlastwagens
SpeedyJ
Visit this Community
Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Member Since: September 17, 2013
entire network: 919 Posts
KitMaker Network: 64 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 - 03:25 AM UTC
Thank you.

Got my LEO and Thai food served so get some missing links uploaded.


Styrene, resin from LZ and wire. Glad I made samples for every part that was scratched, makes it easy for next builds. LZ resin and PE from the set are designed for 20 tons flatbeds, but have also the essential parts for the SSys. Levers are styrene.



Other views from the underside.

More to come, will have to upload much more.

Kind regards,

Robert Jan
mudcake
Visit this Community
South Australia, Australia
Member Since: July 06, 2016
entire network: 49 Posts
KitMaker Network: 3 Posts
Posted: Saturday, December 22, 2018 - 07:19 PM UTC
I'm enjoying following this great build.
One thing though, I think you said that you're going to put a Tiger 1 on it. Wasn't the SSys flatcar for the Panther and lighter vehicals and the SSyms for the heavier Tigers?
SpeedyJ
Visit this Community
Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Member Since: September 17, 2013
entire network: 919 Posts
KitMaker Network: 64 Posts
Posted: Saturday, December 22, 2018 - 09:03 PM UTC
Thanks for your interest. From the sources I researched the Ssys were build for the heavy tanks only. I was not allowed to move lighter vehicles on these flatbeds. SSyms came later to move the most heavy tanks like Tiger 2.
But, seen the transport of a single Tiger1 which is already 52,250 kg., it already exceeds the maximum load for a SSys and not to forget that combat tracks were on the same wagon under the tank. So I could be wrong in this case. Have to check my sources.



Panthers on what I think are SSys, but could also be a SSyms,(notice the fence with mechanical brake in the front).

Will be updating soon on the build, have a lot of details fixed for the bogies. Now busy with the wood.

Kind regards,

Robert Jan
165thspc
#0
Visit this Community
Kentucky, United States
Member Since: April 13, 2011
entire network: 8,236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 127 Posts
Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2018 - 03:17 AM UTC
Loving this thread - just exactly the information I needed - problem is I needed it a few years earlier.

Great model work.
165thspc
#0
Visit this Community
Kentucky, United States
Member Since: April 13, 2011
entire network: 8,236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 127 Posts
Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2018 - 07:35 AM UTC
Question: Should there be coupling hardware hanging on both ends of this car?

The Dragon offering shows it only on one end in the instructions but two sets come with the kit?????

I am guessing on only one end but it seems the yardmen would be spending an awful lot of time removing the hardware from one end and moving it to the other. But perhaps freight cars never got turned.

Was there some standard guideline as in "when in doubt always leave the hardware on the North or East facing end of the car", etc.?
SpeedyJ
Visit this Community
Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Member Since: September 17, 2013
entire network: 919 Posts
KitMaker Network: 64 Posts
Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2018 - 06:06 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Question: Should there be coupling hardware hanging on both ends of this car?
Answer: Coupling hardware is hanging on both sides. See pictures below

Question
The Dragon offering shows it only on one end in the instructions but two sets come with the kit?????

Answer: See above.
Something about the offering from the Dragon kit(if it is kit 6069) is type SSy.
SS type wagons are confusing in a way that in this case we talk about the Schwerlastwagen. As from 1933 there are SSt and SSy. Start of WW2 brings the wagons under new regime and these wagons were only for the transport of military goods.
SSys comes in 1942 and is Gattung Kölnischer Bauart, which means type Cologne. All Special or Sonderwagen were Gattung Köln, also the SSyms.

Question:
I am guessing on only one end but it seems the yardmen would be spending an awful lot of time removing the hardware from one end and moving it to the other. But perhaps freight cars never got turned.
Question:
Was there some standard guideline as in "when in doubt always leave the hardware on the North or East facing end of the car", etc.?



Answer: For very heavy trains there was a possibility to safeguard the couplings by double coupling. Normally a train would stop for a long period so the couplings were switched to the train direction. The loco would made a turn to get back to the front of the train, or in reverse if there was no turntable. See the picture below for details on coupling.





Kind regards,

Robert Jan
SpeedyJ
Visit this Community
Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Member Since: September 17, 2013
entire network: 919 Posts
KitMaker Network: 64 Posts
Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2018 - 10:45 PM UTC
Found another picture on how the coupling is stored when not in use



There's a little hook to hang the coupling. Detail that was missing on the Sabre kit as well. Also seen is a different type of bearing used on the bogie, called Rollenlagern or Roll bearings.



Sabre SSys kit has Gleitlagern, same as the picture below. This Pressblech Drehgestell is a longer version of the 2 axle bogie used under the SSys.



Kind regards,

Robert Jan
165thspc
#0
Visit this Community
Kentucky, United States
Member Since: April 13, 2011
entire network: 8,236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 127 Posts
Posted: Monday, December 24, 2018 - 01:54 AM UTC
That partially answers the question.

These "double hook" couplers you are showing us here are something totally new to me. The popular WWII railroad model kits don't utilize these double hooks - is it fair to say these are a more modern design addition and were not available in the 1940's?

Also you show the "roller bearing" style trucks. I know these were not utilized (at least in the US) until well after the war. Were these roller bearing style trucks post-war in Europe as well?

Given the primary WWII interests of the people on this Armorama site I would suggest clearly marking anything you show us as either "wartime" or post-war".
165thspc
#0
Visit this Community
Kentucky, United States
Member Since: April 13, 2011
entire network: 8,236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 127 Posts
Posted: Monday, December 24, 2018 - 02:03 AM UTC
Very interesting your coupler photo that has one newer and one older style coupling. Cool!
SpeedyJ
Visit this Community
Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Member Since: September 17, 2013
entire network: 919 Posts
KitMaker Network: 64 Posts
Posted: Monday, December 24, 2018 - 02:28 AM UTC
Hi Michael,
My references come from Germany (for the bogies) and I will put links in this reply.
Your question on coupling; the spare hook is not always there. depends on the time frame. The timeframe we are talking about is III and that will last until the mid '1950, by that time it was not seen so often anymore, as all wagons got brakes. Time frame II until the mid "1920 was a revolution on how we know trains, The roll bearings were even before that time frame II very well known. Check the links below. If your German understanding is ok, enjoy, I remember it is.
I got very much interested in the making of those bogies, because it is one of the best design & engineering efforts that can still be seen in real life after so many years. Compared to the Westinghouse braking system it's a draw I think.

http://www.drehgestelle.de/2/pb2_t.html
http://www.drehgestelle.de/8/h_a_3x1_pb_e.html

Kind regards,

Robert Jan
165thspc
#0
Visit this Community
Kentucky, United States
Member Since: April 13, 2011
entire network: 8,236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 127 Posts
Posted: Monday, December 24, 2018 - 02:52 AM UTC
Sorry some French but unfortunately no comprehension of the German language.

Roller bearings prior to 1920 - really????

p.s. I will now have to order more couplings from LZ Models. Thanks for the info!
SpeedyJ
Visit this Community
Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Member Since: September 17, 2013
entire network: 919 Posts
KitMaker Network: 64 Posts
Posted: Monday, December 24, 2018 - 03:51 AM UTC
Not prior 1920. These come from Talbot, 1925.


SpeedyJ
Visit this Community
Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Member Since: September 17, 2013
entire network: 919 Posts
KitMaker Network: 64 Posts
Posted: Monday, December 24, 2018 - 08:13 PM UTC
Tiger 1 on SSys.



Kind regards,

Robert Jan
SpeedyJ
Visit this Community
Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Member Since: September 17, 2013
entire network: 919 Posts
KitMaker Network: 64 Posts
Posted: Thursday, December 27, 2018 - 09:57 PM UTC
Hello. I've managed to get the Tiger on it's transport tracks. Flatbed got some wood treatment, though not finished yet.
So here are some shots of todays work.







Tiger is far from finished, but it got it's tracks mounted(finally). Used Friul tracks for this. Can say it's becoming a bit heavy now.
Ordered a new Flatbed for a truck from LZ Model, it's an OMMR with all the detail underneath. If the resin is not too challenging, I'll make some more purchases. I like the SSyl, ex Russian 60 tons, reworked to German standard. Very cool subject.
But first the second SSys with a load to follow.
More updates soon, as I'm rocking on this build like never before.

Kind regards,

Robert Jan
RobinNilsson
Staff MemberDirector of Member Services
KITMAKER NETWORK
Visit this Community
Stockholm, Sweden
Member Since: November 29, 2006
entire network: 4,716 Posts
KitMaker Network: 665 Posts
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 - 12:14 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Sorry some French but unfortunately no comprehension of the German language.

Roller bearings prior to 1920 - really????

p.s. I will now have to order more couplings from LZ Models. Thanks for the info!



http://evolution.skf.com/de/die-technische-entwicklung-bei-radsatzlagern-fur-eisenbahnen/
Passenger waggons, three axles, built in 1903, had ball bearings.
There were also roller bearings
"Ein weiterer Versuch wurde 1905 von Professor Graham an der Syracuse University im US-Bundesstaat New York durchgeführt. Bei Untersuchungen zum Energieverbrauch führte er einen vergleichenden Versuch mit zwei Straßenbahnen durch, wobei eine mit Gleitlagern und die andere mit Rollenlagern ausgestattet war (Bild 3a). Dabei wurde festgestellt, dass der Energieverbrauch über die Fahrstrecke der Straßenbahn mit Gleitlagern 6,45 kWh betrug; im Vergleich zu 3,10 kWh bei der mit Rollenlagern ausgerüsteten Bahn ergab sich hierbei eine Energieersparnis von 52 % (Bild 3b). 1907 teilte der Betreiber der Syracuse Rapid Transit Co. der Fa. Standard Roller Bearing (SRB) Co. in Philadelphia mit, dass die Rollenlager nach einer Betriebsdauer von 4,5 Jahren und einer Laufleistung von rund 400.000 km keinen Verschleiß aufwiesen.
"
Tramway, Syracuse Rapid Transit Company, reports in 1907 after having used the roller bearings for 4.5 years.
400000 km without visible wear ...

Some report in German about roller bearings published 1900
https://books.google.se/books?id=CGUvF3K67z8C&pg=PT64&lpg=PT64&dq=eisenbahn+rollenlager&source=bl&ots=4F3m0UhI42&sig=gVa10pGvn-Ujv75ua1T6mew75pY&hl=sv&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiR99uzvcLfAhXThKYKHYy0DKYQ6AEwD3oECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=eisenbahn%20rollenlager&f=false
Images on page 69

/ Robin
165thspc
#0
Visit this Community
Kentucky, United States
Member Since: April 13, 2011
entire network: 8,236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 127 Posts
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 - 01:32 AM UTC
Some beautiful work on the Plattformwagon and the Tiger I!
SpeedyJ
Visit this Community
Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Member Since: September 17, 2013
entire network: 919 Posts
KitMaker Network: 64 Posts
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 - 01:47 AM UTC
Thanks 🙏. Not sure if I can do that what I planned for this weekend because we’re going to move the factory, as from January 2! Busy but will come along! Got the message just yesterday so... weekends will be shorter. Business is going to be number one of the next year, again.
Next update tomorrow!

Kind regards,

Robert Jan
Dioramartin
Visit this Community
New South Wales, Australia
Member Since: May 04, 2016
entire network: 873 Posts
KitMaker Network: 2 Posts
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 - 02:40 AM UTC
Never seen this thread before, fascinating progress & excellent build quality Robert. I’ll be interested to see how big your dio base will be – beats my planned 1.5m square by the look of it. I’m not across the Tiger variations but do the wheels on it make the subject late 1944 onwards? If so that might take the front line more towards eastern Poland than the Ukraine (Operation Bagration) - just an observation depending how specific your subject’s going to be, I’m enjoying the ride whatever you do
SpeedyJ
Visit this Community
Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Member Since: September 17, 2013
entire network: 919 Posts
KitMaker Network: 64 Posts
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 - 04:01 AM UTC
Thanks Tim for the nice comments. The initial plans still exist, showing a line of SSys getting loaded with Tigers, there will be 2. One on the wagon, the other changing tracks. But my knowledge of specific theatre is far from the people on this specific forum. A transport is going somewhere, but for me the scene is more important. About the dimensions of the diorama, it will be a 2.5 meters in length, with a width of 0.60 meters(I have a nice spare room for that. But that's a future window I'm not able to plan in detail yet. Maybe you've seen my photos of landscapes, it's almost boring but something makes it interesting. Can be anything, that's what I want to achieve for sure.(image a railroad switch would, in scale, measure almost one meter.) And I've seen one....

Kind regards,

Robert Jan
SpeedyJ
Visit this Community
Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Member Since: September 17, 2013
entire network: 919 Posts
KitMaker Network: 64 Posts
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 - 04:07 AM UTC
But of course Tim, I made my notes yet on your comment, that's for sure. Maybe need some books...

Robert Jan
Blaubar
Visit this Community
Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
Member Since: December 15, 2016
entire network: 261 Posts
KitMaker Network: 7 Posts
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 - 11:34 PM UTC
Robert Jan,
This is a fine blog of yours. I am not sure why I had not spotted it earlier.
, but you’ve got Library-Robin on board😂 so all is good. He has got sources for every imaginable question it seems.
Cheers and happy new year,
/Stefan
165thspc
#0
Visit this Community
Kentucky, United States
Member Since: April 13, 2011
entire network: 8,236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 127 Posts
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2018 - 04:31 AM UTC
Just a note on roller bearings:

It was actually almost twelve years earlier than I remembered that US railroads actually did their first serious experiments in all roller bearing locomotives. I thought it was not till the early 1940's but in reality it was 1930 when US manufactures finally followed European practice:

This taken from Wikipedia:

Timkin 1111
Timken chose a 4-8-4 on which to demonstrate the company's bearings so the locomotive could be used in all types of railroad work, especially on heavy freight and fast passenger trains. A total of 52 different parts manufacturers agreed to supply their parts for the locomotive "on account" until the locomotive operated over 100,000 miles (161,000 km). The suppliers' names were placed on a plaque that was fastened to the tender for the duration of the demonstration period.

Assembly took place at Alco's Schenectady, New York, plant.



I do not recall just when roller bearings finally became standard equipment on all US built rolling stock but I would hazard a guess that it was not until the early sixties.
RobinNilsson
Staff MemberDirector of Member Services
KITMAKER NETWORK
Visit this Community
Stockholm, Sweden
Member Since: November 29, 2006
entire network: 4,716 Posts
KitMaker Network: 665 Posts
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2018 - 05:49 AM UTC
The guy carrying the idea across the Atlantic did it by paddling a bathtub using a teaspoon as a paddle,
that is why it took almost 30 years ....
165thspc
#0
Visit this Community
Kentucky, United States
Member Since: April 13, 2011
entire network: 8,236 Posts
KitMaker Network: 127 Posts
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2018 - 07:21 AM UTC
Must have - no other explanation.

Actually I suspect the slow move to roller bearings in the US had more to do with the cheap cost and ample availability of both coal and bunker C oil for running steam locomotives.

Why invest large amounts of resources into making trains and locomotives roll more easily when all it was costing the US railroads at the time was a little more cheap coal and oil?
RobinNilsson
Staff MemberDirector of Member Services
KITMAKER NETWORK
Visit this Community
Stockholm, Sweden
Member Since: November 29, 2006
entire network: 4,716 Posts
KitMaker Network: 665 Posts
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2018 - 07:39 AM UTC
I think you are right in that assumption.
And:
If you reduce the rolling resistance the same horsepower locomotive can pull more cars and the railroad company can increase their loads without investing in more powerful locomotives.

Not much business in that for the locomotive builders ....