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Armor/AFV: Early Armor
WWI and other early tanks and armored cars.
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T7 Combat Car
retiredyank
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Posted: Sunday, March 19, 2017 - 12:47 AM GMT+7
Does anyone know of a T7 combat car, in 35th scale? I have found the scout car, but the only similarity is the hull.
jon_a_its
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Posted: Sunday, March 19, 2017 - 09:45 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Does anyone know of a T7 combat car, in 35th scale? I have found the scout car, but the only similarity is the hull.



Discussed here

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retiredyank
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Posted: Monday, March 20, 2017 - 12:38 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Does anyone know of a T7 combat car, in 35th scale? I have found the scout car, but the only similarity is the hull.



Discussed here

Commander Models List



I've seen that particular post. Unfortunately, it only says that the combat car does not exist. Commander Models only makes the T7 scout car. I can't even find photos to build the kit from scratch.

 photo Convertible_Combat_Car_T7.jpg
spongya
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Posted: Monday, March 20, 2017 - 01:11 AM GMT+7
Boy I would love to have this in 1/72
retiredyank
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Posted: Monday, March 20, 2017 - 01:14 AM GMT+7
It's one of the more interesting tanks I have come across.
MikeyBugs95
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Posted: Monday, March 20, 2017 - 04:58 AM GMT+7
The scout car has twin turrets, right? Or is the twin turreted vehicle the combat car? Or is it neither?
retiredyank
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Posted: Monday, March 20, 2017 - 12:51 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text

The scout car has twin turrets, right? Or is the twin turreted vehicle the combat car? Or is it neither?



The photo is the combat car, the one I am looking for.
tankmodeler
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Posted: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 - 06:47 AM GMT+7
I don't have my drawings handy, but I think the basic hull is very similar tot eh M2 Combat Cars that grew into the M3 Stuart.

I'd suggest scratchbuilding the thing except the tracks and wheels would be stone cold b!tches to scratch build. The tracks are doable with a lathe and more than a little patience, but those tracks! Oy! Nothing else even close to that available form another source.

Paul
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 - 07:15 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

... the tracks and wheels would be stone cold b!tches to scratch build. The tracks are doable with a lathe and more than a little patience, but those tracks! Oy! Nothing else even close to that available form another source.

Paul



Maybe that is the reason why there isn't a kit of this vehicle yet .....
retiredyank
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Posted: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 - 08:34 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text


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... the tracks and wheels would be stone cold b!tches to scratch build. The tracks are doable with a lathe and more than a little patience, but those tracks! Oy! Nothing else even close to that available form another source.

Paul



Maybe that is the reason why there isn't a kit of this vehicle yet .....



I suspect that it would be a resin kit, long before attempted in plastic.
retiredyank
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Posted: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 - 08:40 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

The scout car has twin turrets, right? Or is the twin turreted vehicle the combat car? Or is it neither?



There are so many variants, I can't explain which is which, except that the T7 combat car has the turret depicted.
MikeyBugs95
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Posted: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 - 08:42 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The scout car has twin turrets, right? Or is the twin turreted vehicle the combat car? Or is it neither?



The photo is the combat car, the one I am looking for.



Oh, ok. I see.

If you'd like, to save you some trouble, I could attempt the turret, tracks and wheels if Paul would be willing to share his drawings.
retiredyank
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Posted: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 - 02:41 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

I don't have my drawings handy, but I think the basic hull is very similar tot eh M2 Combat Cars that grew into the M3 Stuart.

I'd suggest scratchbuilding the thing except the tracks and wheels would be stone cold b!tches to scratch build. The tracks are doable with a lathe and more than a little patience, but those tracks! Oy! Nothing else even close to that available form another source.

Paul



Please, pm me.
1.90E_31
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Posted: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 - 10:49 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Does anyone know of a T7 combat car, in 35th scale? I have found the scout car, but the only similarity is the hull.



Discussed here

Commander Models List



I've seen that particular post. Unfortunately, it only says that the combat car does not exist. Commander Models only makes the T7 scout car. I can't even find photos to build the kit from scratch.



The double turret T-series combat car is the T5, which we do make. The T7 has actually three problems. The tires and tracks are two of them, and the third is the suspension that sits behind the first road wheel. I've found one picture of it, and it's pretty complex. Without getting a whole lot more information on it, that structure would be at best a SWAG. BTW, all the road wheels are powered on this, so there's no telling what the transmissions for the rear wheels even looks like.

Also, the T7 is it's own design. It has nothing to do with the T5 series (other than the engine I think) running up through the M3/M5 Stuart. It's smaller, and has power to all the wheels, which also makes the tracks removable (adding to the desire of modelers to have separate link track to stow on the fenders...). It's a long term project...

Jon Warneke
Commander Models, Inc.
tankmodeler
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Posted: Thursday, March 23, 2017 - 04:53 AM GMT+7
Jon,

I don't have access to other T7 photos at the moment, but is the basic hull box of the T7 that much different than the M2 series? Notwithstanding that the arrangement of the wheels and how they got power to the wheels, etc., is going to make the lower hull fittings, at the very least, substantially different. You can even see elements of the front wheel suspension sticking up our of the glacis in front of the drivers' doors.

The driver's compartment, turret and turret location and sponsons look very similar, at least in proportion, to the M2. Granted you need a replacement for the M2's differential cover under the glacis, but that's not too hard.

Still, if things like the width between the wheels is narrower or the turret is placed further back from the driver's plates then the proportions are too far off to bother thinking of scavenging an M2, even if we had any idea of what lies behind those wheels.

In any case, an awful lot of guesswork in there.

Is there another source of images other than this one and Hunnicutt?

Paul
retiredyank
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Posted: Thursday, March 23, 2017 - 09:56 AM GMT+7
I could try to get hold of Aberdeen, as that is where the photo lists the tank as being. My dad has been wanting to go there(ex-EOD) and we could split the cost.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Thursday, March 23, 2017 - 10:48 AM GMT+7
There are not many, if any vehicles left at Aberdeen. The T7 that was there was probably moved to Ft Benning, GA with the rest of the Aberdeen collection.
MikeyBugs95
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Posted: Thursday, March 23, 2017 - 11:09 AM GMT+7
And besides, there's no guarantee that the tank is still around. Like other experimental vehicles (T49/T67) the T7 could've been scrapped.
retiredyank
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Posted: Thursday, March 23, 2017 - 12:39 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text

There are not many, if any vehicles left at Aberdeen. The T7 that was there was probably moved to Ft Benning, GA with the rest of the Aberdeen collection.



Ft. Benning is closer to me.


Quoted Text

And besides, there's no guarantee that the tank is still around. Like other experimental vehicles (T49/T67) the T7 could've been scrapped.



The only way to know is to try.
szaloga
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Posted: Thursday, March 23, 2017 - 12:59 PM GMT+7
The T7 Combat Car pilot was scrapped years ago. Only a single one was built. I live about 5 miles from APG and trust me, none survives there and none was ever transferred to Ft. Benning. If you want to do further research on this vehicle, you will have to go to NARA II in College Park, MD and dig out the reports of the Mechanized Cavalry Board in Record Group 156. Good luck. There is no finding aid and there are hundreds of archive boxes in that record group. What you will find are the photos in the Hunnicutt Stuart book. Sad to say, obscure prototype vehicles are not well documented.
retiredyank
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Posted: Thursday, March 23, 2017 - 09:11 PM GMT+7
Thanks Steve. I won't be able to devote that much time, this year. My step-father is in poor health and I am his caregiver. Perhaps next year.
I have also struck upon the idea that nobody knows what the suspension looks like. I should be able to flub it a little and still pull off a reasonable representation.
retiredyank
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Posted: Thursday, March 23, 2017 - 10:24 PM GMT+7
Commander Models released the M2A1, which looks like the Combat Car. I believe that they share the same suspension type(minus actual road wheels) and hull dimensions. I have also come across some 48 scale drawings of the T7, though basic.
1.90E_31
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Posted: Friday, March 24, 2017 - 12:14 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Jon,

I don't have access to other T7 photos at the moment, but is the basic hull box of the T7 that much different than the M2 series? Notwithstanding that the arrangement of the wheels and how they got power to the wheels, etc., is going to make the lower hull fittings, at the very least, substantially different. You can even see elements of the front wheel suspension sticking up our of the glacis in front of the drivers' doors.

The driver's compartment, turret and turret location and sponsons look very similar, at least in proportion, to the M2. Granted you need a replacement for the M2's differential cover under the glacis, but that's not too hard.

Still, if things like the width between the wheels is narrower or the turret is placed further back from the driver's plates then the proportions are too far off to bother thinking of scavenging an M2, even if we had any idea of what lies behind those wheels.

In any case, an awful lot of guesswork in there.

Is there another source of images other than this one and Hunnicutt?

Paul



Reading through Hunnicutt (the whole two pages...), it looks like I was confusing the research I did on the T4 (which is at Benning) and the T7. The T7 did use the hex turret of the M2 Combat Car, but the hull is that of an M1 Combat Car (gas engine on the T7, diesel on the M2). That being said, it looks like the rear drive was for both rear wheels on what looks like a 5-ton truck leaf spring (maybe off an early Corbitt or other early prime mover), and where the centers of rotation are on the rear wheels, the differentials are inside the hull. Which leads to the confusing part of the Hunnicutt drawings. It looks like there are cut outs of the standard M1 CC hull for either the drive axles or the leaf spring axle in the lower hull. You can see them in the rear drawing for the T7. Also, the steering axles for the front road wheels has to have access through the hull since the lower edge of the hull is far below the center of rotation of the front road wheels, and there would have to be some sort of suspension behind the front wheels that can't be seen in the photos. I know the T4 has a cutout in the hull at the front for it's front suspension (the front of the hull is thinner at the front, and widens out to the rear to allow for that suspension), but the T7's is invisible without plans.

As for the road wheels and tracks, a good 3D printer would solve those issues...

Jon
szaloga
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Posted: Friday, March 24, 2017 - 01:40 AM GMT+7
The T7 Convertible Combat Car was basically a M1A1 Combat Car with John Christmas's/RIA's convertible suspension. The turret is the standard type used with the M1A1 Combat Car, not the higher "Improved Cavalry Turret" of the M2 Combat Car. I have an explanation of the basic evolution of these things in my new Osprey New Vanguard "Early US Armor: Tanks 1916-1940" that came out this week. Due to its small size, it doesn't go into a lot of detail, but it does lay out the basic evolution of the Combat Cars.