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Armor/AFV
For all military ground-force modelling subjects.
Mk23 MTVR & 16.6 ton LHS
165thspc
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Posted: Friday, December 02, 2016 - 11:00 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text



I'm SURE that you understand the Toe-Out On Turns, judging from your latest line-drawing in your last post.




I am fairly sure right now I DO NOT understand.

Are you perhaps saying that currently my front axle is OK but that the toe-in settings for the rear two axles is backwards??? That they are too toed-in?
fhvn4d
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Posted: Saturday, December 03, 2016 - 12:43 AM GMT+7
HEAD SPINNING !!!!!! If we are going to get this far in depth with our models (which I understand) shouldnt we think about putting air in the tires??? 10W 40 in the engine?? ... poking fun at this guys but honestly what are these measurements on real vehicles??? Millimeters??? MAYBE an inch? scale that down...... 1/35th of an inch is what ??? uggg... getting dizzy again!!!! LOL.... FWIW it is a great job from my eyes perspective!!!! BUILD BUILD BUILD!!!!
r2d2
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Posted: Saturday, December 03, 2016 - 01:04 AM GMT+7
Its good to understand the actual technicalities and applications at this scale (1/35). It would barely be noticeable unless its to obviously exaggerated.

I do understand all this metrics and wheel parameters as mentioned and its good to apply this with the build. Even in real vehicles you need a full laser alignment to adjust it as by looking at it is not precise. Does this means eyeballing it and knowing the basic principle is ok...for me its just fine but then again if you want precision then you have at least a laser guiding system to make sure what you are doing to your model in 1/35th scale is exact and not only bending it or fixing it in place. Probable you have to develop your own wheel alignment software and hardware for 1/35th. I don't know anybody would do this but just to prove that you might be at a different level of being a rivet counter. To make matter worse, you have to consider the effect of a loaded suspension system, tire pressure, cargo load, wheel brand, rubber compound, environmental condition, age of the vehicle, bushings, etc.... shall I go on?

Michael, just by looking at your wheel alignment it looks spot on. I have also looked at your other models and its just fine I don't think there is an alignment issue or a "wonky" wheel. Carry on what you are doing and its all looking great. Your steering alignment looks spot on at this scale. Don't worry about caster angle nobody will check the hub angle in your truck. As for the toe in/out yours looks great and as for the camber angle trust me it won't be noticed as long as its not obviously exaggerated at this scale. Keep us posted.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Saturday, December 03, 2016 - 01:58 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text


Quoted Text



I'm SURE that you understand the Toe-Out On Turns, judging from your latest line-drawing in your last post.




I am fairly sure right now I DO NOT understand.

Are you perhaps saying that currently my front axle is OK but that the toe-in settings for the rear two axles is backwards??? That they are too toed-in?



Hi, Mike!

No, what I'm saying is that your latest photo, viewed from overhead the vehicle, (with the YELLOW LINES), is now showing the proper configuration of Toe-Out On Turns. So actually, by displaying YOUR NEW Wheel Alignment configuration, you are showing me that you DO understand the concept behind Toe-Out On Turns, which is GREAT!!!

Your earlier color photo, (RED LINES), displaying from overhead, shows me that your Wheel Alignment was incorrect, in that there was NO Toe-Out On Turns.

The easiest way to remember Toe-Out On Turns is to keep in mind that ALL Wheels/Tires that are actually steering the vehicle should be SPLAYED OUTWARDS from each other AT THE FRONT of the Wheels/Tires, IF the vehicle is traveling FRONTWARDS, just as you correctly show in your last photo, (Yellow Lines).

NOTE 1: The configuration of Toe-Out On Turns IS REVERSED, IF the vehicle is traveling REARWARDS... This is ESPECIALLY true on 6 or 8-wheeled vehicles which have Front, Center, and Rear-steering. Classic examples are the WWII German 8-wheeled Armored Cars, i.e, the Sd.Kfz.231-series and Sd.Kfz.234-series...

NOTE 2: TOE-IN APPLIES ONLY IF THE VEHICLE IS TRAVELING IN A STRAIGHT LINE, and NEVER when it is making a turn in either direction...

Please understand Mike, that I'm not CRITICIZING YOUR WORK, OR PERSONALLY SINGLING YOU OUT with this info-

Time and Time AGAIN, I've seen SOME of the MOST EXPERIENCED & TALENTED MODELLERS IN THE WORLD make these same mistakes on their "first prize-winning" models!

IMO, I have a VERY HIGH OPINION of the GREAT WORK that is shown on this site by you, Gino, and quite a few other modellers- It's a long list, so you other guys, PLEASE don't be offended if I didn't mention you by name!

If I had HALF of a BRAIN, I should have published an article or a primer on "Proper Wheel Alignment for Wheeled Vehicles In Scale" a looong time ago!!!

Too busy with numerous projects on my OWN workbenches, I guess...

I'm sincerely hoping that I made myself a little clearer at this point. I apologize that I don't have enough computer skills, I don't have a printer, nor do I have a digital camera with a USB port in order to download and upload illustrations/photos of what I'm trying to explain here.

To actually VIEW a drawing or a photo, so much better illustrates a point or subject matter/info, rather than trying to put subject matter/info into words, ESPECIALLY if the subject matter is of a technical nature. It's almost as difficult sometimes as trying to describe in words, the color RED...

IMO, Tech Manuals without illustrations or photos make for some pretty frustrating reading- Almost IMPOSSIBLE to understand PROPERLY...
165thspc
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Posted: Saturday, December 03, 2016 - 04:43 AM GMT+7
Please understand Gentlemen that I definitely do not consider this discussion to be criticism. I consider it education! If I thought they could answer my questions on rear wheel STEERING alignment I would be at a local alignment shop offering to pay them to educate me!

Your advice/instruction here is FREE!
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Saturday, December 03, 2016 - 04:43 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

HEAD SPINNING !!!!!! If we are going to get this far in depth with our models (which I understand) shouldnt we think about putting air in the tires??? 10W 40 in the engine?? ... poking fun at this guys but honestly what are these measurements on real vehicles??? Millimeters??? MAYBE an inch? scale that down...... 1/35th of an inch is what ??? uggg... getting dizzy again!!!! LOL.... FWIW it is a great job from my eyes perspective!!!! BUILD BUILD BUILD!!!!



Hi, Brian!!!

It's a matter of translating tiny increments of measure at their respective points of origin, i.e, at the Ball Joints, versus the final measuring points at the very edges of the Wheels/Tires. The measurements INCREASE DRAMATICALLY on the REAL THING, as well as on scale models- No matter how small the measurements are at 1/35 scale, the differences ARE noticeable.

Check Mike's EXCELLENT photos; notice the different angles of the Wheels/Tires, and the distances between the fronts and rears of them when viewed from above or below, and you'll see what I mean. Also, check REAL VEHICLES, and you'll see that proper Wheel Alignment manifests itself just as obviously. And believe it or not, these different angles of the Wheels/Tires, when viewed from either SIDE of the vehicle, are quite noticeable, as well...
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Saturday, December 03, 2016 - 04:45 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Please understand Gentlemen that I definitely do not consider this discussion to be criticism. I consider it education! If I thought they could answer my questions on rear wheel STEERING alignment I would be at a local alignment shop offering to pay them to educate me!

Your advice/instruction here is FREE!



THANKS MUCH, Mike!!!

PS- Many "multi-steering" vehicles employ TWO Tie-Rod assemblies and FOUR Steering Arms per steering Wheel/Tire sets; that is, looking from above or below, ONE Tie-Rod FORE and ONE Tie-Rod AFT of the Drive Axles. These are usually connected to center-mounted Bell Cranks which are connected to Steering Arms, which in turn, are connected to the various parts of the Steering Gear Box. I know that it sounds complicated, but if you're looking at the real thing, you can easily see that it's not really as complicated as it sounds, and you can also see that it all makes sense in the way that the whole system is designed, and how simply it really works!!!
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Saturday, December 03, 2016 - 05:17 AM GMT+7



Hi, Matt!!!

THANKS SO MUCH for showing in your links what I have been trying to show in only my own words, which I admit, needed A LOT of explanation!

The rest of you guys- You SEE what actual pictures mean against mere words?
165thspc
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Posted: Saturday, December 03, 2016 - 05:35 AM GMT+7
Dennis you will get a kick out of this: - This past year I traveled to a AMPS regional show to compete. I was able to take some of my older models that had done very well at previous IPMS sponsored shows.

I took my 1/35th scale scratch Mack NO and it only got a second in it's class. (Do bear in mind that this model had, in the past, garnered two IPMS best armor awards, one IPMS best of show and an AMPS national gold metal!)

I learned later that the judges had marked the model down because the working steering I had built was set with WAY too much incorrect toe-out in the straight ahead steering position!

In actuality, I KNEW the tie rod was too short but in the past I had always posed the model in a full steering turn to hide this problem rather than fix it. This was the first time the judges had ever moved the steering to check on this!

I always told myself I should have fixed that!
165thspc
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Posted: Saturday, December 03, 2016 - 06:03 AM GMT+7
Thanks Matt for all the illustrations. I now have my pattern for the wheel angles for my HEMTT steering:

165thspc
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Posted: Saturday, December 03, 2016 - 06:16 AM GMT+7
A picture is worth a thousand . . . . . . . .
165thspc
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Posted: Saturday, December 03, 2016 - 09:42 AM GMT+7
More shots of the Mk31 semi-tractor:



HermannB
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Posted: Saturday, December 03, 2016 - 09:56 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Also found a walk-around of an M1120 LHS w/CHU (Container Handling Unit) on Prime Portal. There are some good views of the pivoting guides.

Check it out here.



Anyone noted the new trailer hook (or whatever it is called)
on PLS and LHS?
165thspc
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Posted: Saturday, December 03, 2016 - 10:15 AM GMT+7
I have been calling it the X-frame but I think it is actually a CHU (Container Handling Unit).

At first a container could only be handled by strapping it to a flatrack and then using the standard Load Handling System (LHS) equipment to pick up the container plus flatrack.

More recently the CHU was created. This permits a container to be handled without involving the use of a flatrack. This invention saves valuable military resources (the flatrack) and the absence of the flatrack saves on total load weight (which saves on fuel) and lowers the center of gravity of the container by a full 13 inches because the container now rides directly on the vehicle.

The operator has the option (somehow) to leave the CHU on the vehicle and use just the standard LHS when needing to deal with an actual flatrack.

165thspc
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Posted: Saturday, December 03, 2016 - 01:05 PM GMT+7
From the digplanet info site:

Container Handling Units. The Container Handling Unit (CHU) is an add-on kit that allows for the loading/unloading and transport of standard 20 ft (6.1 m) ISO containers without the need for an intermediate flatrack. M1075 PLS trucks (with or without winch) can have an integral CHU stowage facility between the LHS hook arm and engine. CHUs were procured as part of the original FHTV contract. Weight of the complete CHU is 1746 kg. Installation time is 80 man hours. Oshkosh produced the original CHU, the current E-CHU (E - Enhanced) is manufactured by GT Machining & Fabricating Ltd of Canada. By September 2010 over 1,000 E-CHUs had been produced. Current orders increase totals to 6300 units, with production running until September 2016.

Flatracks. Three types of flatrack have been procured as part of the system, the M1077/M1077A1, the M3/M3A1 and the M1 ISO Compatible Flatrack. The M1077 and M1077A1 General Purpose A-frame flatracks are sideless flatracks used to transport pallets of ammunition and other classes of supplies. On the ISO-compatible Palletized Flatrack (IPF) Type M1 there are two end walls, one incorporating the A-frame. Both walls can fold down inwardly for stacking when empty. The M3/M3A1 Container Roll-in/Out Platform (CROP) is, a flatrack that fits inside a 20 ft (6.1 m) ISO container.
165thspc
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Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2016 - 11:22 AM GMT+7
Surface shipping from Shanghai on the second Mk23 is taking a L-O-N-G, long time!

Tracking says it shipped out of China on Nov. 21. Tracking does not list the routing. Now-a-days since the canal is being enlarged, more container freight bound for the eastern US goes thru the Panama Canal to an East coast port.
pgb3476
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Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2016 - 11:40 AM GMT+7
Surface can take another month. I always go air from Hong Kong.
165thspc
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Posted: Tuesday, December 20, 2016 - 05:59 AM GMT+7


Season's Greetings
165thspc
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Posted: Friday, December 30, 2016 - 06:40 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Surface shipping from Shanghai on the second Mk23 is taking a L-O-N-G, long time!

Tracking says it shipped out of China on Nov. 21. Tracking does not list the routing. Now-a-days since the canal is being enlarged, more container freight bound for the eastern US goes thru the Panama Canal to an East coast port.



Still nothing, tracking still doesn't show it as arriving in the states.
165thspc
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Posted: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 - 08:13 AM GMT+7
The second Mk 23 HAS ARRIVED!
pgb3476
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Posted: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 - 09:21 AM GMT+7
Great, next time air....lol
Taylornic
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Posted: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 - 02:22 PM GMT+7
Glad it showed up. Having withdrawals here!
165thspc
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Posted: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 - 03:09 PM GMT+7
Me too. I was having a serious case of the DT's over this. But tonight I have a new stretched 33 foot 8x8 frame sitting on my workbench drying!

However, no photos available b/c my Photobucket account has me locked out for the moment, also very frustrating.
Taylornic
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Posted: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 - 12:09 PM GMT+7
Thats getting to be a normal thing at photobucket. Will be waiting for updates!
165thspc
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Posted: Thursday, January 12, 2017 - 02:40 AM GMT+7
Frame extended, non-steering axle/tires installed and new driveshaft constructed.

Sorry still no response from Photobucket tech services except the automated response that just sends me to the same places I got to on my own at least 5 times already, so still not able to provide progress photos.