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General Ship Modeling
Discuss modeling techniques, experiences, and ship modeling in general.
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My Build Log of the Heller 1/100 HMS Victory
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Saturday, February 11, 2017 - 10:00 AM UTC
Anything that dries clear, soaks into the material, is sticky and doesn't leave shiny stains on the surface would work.
Even white glue thinned with water would probably work

My name and possible relatives.
Swedish names ending with -son means son (male offspring).
In the old days the surname changed with each generation.
Example: Johan Andersson had three sons, Axel, Per and Karl.
The grandfather of the three boys was called Anders, the three boys would evenetually change their surname to Johansson
(Johans son where the extra 's' comes from the genitive).
Johan Anderssons grandsons would eventually become Xxx Axelsson, Yyy Persson and Zzz Karlsson respectively.

In the mid 19th century the state started getting fed up with this system where it was near impossible to keep track of which xxxxsson was related to what other yyyysson, especially since there was limited supply of boys first names. In any larger village or small town there would be a number of Anderssons which were not related to each other but rather the cousins of some Persson, Johansson and Karlsson.
In Ireland the O' fills a similar function but they at least keep it as a family name so it stays the same across generations (or so I have been told).
So what did the state do? They sent out officials to try and persuade the common people to change their surnames to something more permanent, for example Lundström or Ekberg. The system here was two nouns (Lund = very small forest, ström = stream (creek or smal river), Ek = oak berg = hill/mountain).
The agents would take a look at the premises and say something like: Oohh! Nice little hill with oaks you have got there my dear fellow, shall we make it Ekberg then?
Some of the population accepted and some didn't.
Then there were also the stubborn ones:
My grandfather was Johan Nilsson so my father Gustav grew up being a Nilsson, when my fathers elder brothers (3 of them) were old enough they decided that they wanted to be Johanssons instead so they went to the parish priest (the church did the bookkeeping until mid 1990's sometime) and had their surnames changed. When they came back home they told my father that he was now a Johansson, my father presumably used some profane language and went to the parish priest and told him that he had been born a Nilsson, grown up as a Nilsson and that he wanted to stay a Nilsson for the future as well. I would have been a Johansson turned Gustavsson otherwise

I did a quick check on a website which delivers information about persons over 18 years of age and there are currently 148298 individuals with Nilsson or Nilson as surname (some of them could have died in the last week or so and maybe some new ones have been born but the registers are reasonably up to date)

As for my first name, Robin. It was fairly unique when I was a kid (I turn 53 tomorrow) but in the early 1980's there was a tennis player, Björn Borg, who named his son Robin so suddenly the name was everywhere. I realised this when I heard my name called by a young woman whom I had never seen before. I almost said: 'What, You talking to me' before I realised she was calling her 3-4 year old son.
There was one more Robin in my hometown and today there are 24534 of us. There are 529 Robin Nilsson (exact spelling).
There is only 485 Robins in the ages 50 to 99 and 51 of us in the interval 52-53.
Some Irish colleagues at Ericsson got a big surprise (6'4'' with a 5 o'clock shadow) when they saw me the first time. We had only e-mailed before so they thought I was female like their colleague Robin

/ Robin

RobinNilsson
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Posted: Saturday, February 11, 2017 - 10:44 AM UTC

Some inspiration



pbishop
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Posted: Saturday, February 11, 2017 - 02:07 PM UTC
Robin - thanks for the info on you name's - it made great reading especially about your grandfather! I appreciate you educating me about this and it let's me get to know you a little better. That's something that lacking on forums like this and I appreciate it a lot. I have a lot more time on my hands now - my dear wife of 41 years passed away last July and even though I have family as close as upstairs (I live in a VERY nicely appointed basement) the human interaction is I find more important to me now.

So I appreciate you taking the time about this.

Re the Victory sails - I've seen that before and it really brings home the damage that can occur during battle. That's something that's just not depicted on ship models. I'm not going to try on mine either. It's very nice that England is taking such good care of this ship - it is indeed a treasure like our USS Ironsides.

I just got in the mail today some "Golden Medium GAC-400". It's supposed to stiffen textiles and fibers. I read about it online and thought I'd give it a try.

RobinNilsson
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Posted: Saturday, February 11, 2017 - 08:48 PM UTC
Unless it has already been done: maybe you could write a little review on that GAC-400 and report how it works once you have tried it
Especially if it also works as a glue for those "perimeter" lines.


About measuring ropes: I have a friend whose father worked as a steward for Wallenius (used to operate ships transporting cars around the globe). My friend accompanied his father working as a deckhand. Once they needed some stanchions with eyes for ropes and the machinist was asked to make them. Sure he said, what size of those eyes do you need? The answer was 'For three inch ropes'. The machinist made rope eyes for those stanchions that were 80 mm in diameter instead of the needed 25-30 mm.

/ Robin
pbishop
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Posted: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 - 05:28 PM UTC
Robin,
Thanks - when I get to that point I'll probably do that.

I've finally finished the upper ratlines on the main and fore masts. I've also started rigging the sails specifically the fire course sail. I've attached a 2 inch rope (thread) around the perimeter using Aleene's No-Sew Fabric Glue. It works quite well and forms a strong enough bond (I hope). I've also made earrings as per Steels book mastmaking sails and rigging.







timmyp
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Posted: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 12:38 AM UTC
Hey Paul,

I sure hope that Alene's fabric glue works, especially since it says right on the bottle it's for temporary holding of fabric!!

Tim
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 01:08 AM UTC
Well .... The "temporary" sort of depends on the usage.
Gluing down patches on the holes in your teenagers jeans is one thing. Mechanical stress and the occasional spin in the washing machine and dryer ...

Maybe it would be wise to avoid too much tension on the various rigging lines attached to the sail. Maybe strengthen those points with a little sewing?

Chemical ageing of the glue could be an issue though.
It would be very annoying if it turns to yellow-ish dust after a couple of years ...

/ Robin
pbishop
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Posted: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 05:08 AM UTC
Thanks guys - these are all good points. Since I plan on keeping the ship out of direct sunlight, yellowing due to UV won't be an issue. If you notice the sails already have a yellow tint to them so I think I will be ok (knock on wood).

Yes I'm gonna be careful on the line tension when I rig the sails.

Regards,
Paul
pbishop
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Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2017 - 10:19 AM UTC
I've done some more work on the fore course sail. After giving the sail a wash of GOLDEN GAC-400 and letting it dry over the supplied plastic sail it became much stiffer. I then added the reef lines using a needle and DCM #100 thread. By weaving the thread back and fourth I was able to stitch each row of the reef lines. I used tape on the sail to make sure each line was at least 15 mm long. After each row was done I put a little Model Master flat clear lacquer at each point that the thread passed through the sail. This secured the thread, after the lacquer was dry I trimmed each reef line to 15 mm length on both the front and back of the sail.

At this point I looked at the sails and they just seemed too yellow, so I airbrushed this sail with Flory's Weathering Wash. I used the grey color, this gave the sail just the right aged look – there is a picture of the aged sail next to and untreated one. I then used DMC #100 thread the stitch the sail to the foremast lower yard arm. The final result is shown below.






RobinNilsson
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Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 09:48 AM UTC
If I may raise a small objection ...
The sails need to be attached (bent) to the yard arm in a workable way.
On more modern sailing ships there can be a rod (jackstay) attached on small "pillars" on top of the yard arm and the sail is then attached to this rod. Looking at some images of the real thing I am not able to see any evidence of such rods on HMS Victory so the sails must be attached directly to the yard arm, BUT, this needs to be done in such a way that sailors can do it while clinging to the yard arm. If a sail needs to be replaced in bad weather conditions it will be very hard and dangerous work to wind a long rope around the yard and several times through the sail. A long rope looping around and around the yard arm through the top of the sail would not work (especially in windy weather). Instead of one long rope (or thread in this case) it should be several short ropes. It's a lot more work though ....

I don't know which ship this is a model of but it shows they way that I think (note: I think) that it should look like. The sail is tied to the underside of the yard with several short ropes with a knot on the top of the yard.


/ Robin

More about jackstays:
https://sites.google.com/site/shipwrightsfaq/smf-researchnotes/smf-RN-Jackstays
Seems to have been introduced after 1808 and before 1818 or 1819 so most likely not on Victory at Trafalgar in 1805
pbishop
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Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 10:33 AM UTC
Robin - you are right of course. I guess I'm just using artistic license here. I may have seen the technique I used on other models, but I just wasn't in the mood to do a lot of ties like you depict. I may change my mind and use another more correct method on the other sails.

I appreciate you comments!
JJ1973
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Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 05:07 PM UTC
Hi Paul,

this is turning into a pretty interesting expert discussion, and I can't really contribute to that...

Anyway, just a quick break in to say that the work on your sails looks outstanding, whether the way they are attached historically correct or not. What Robin says sounds right, though...

Cheers,
Jan
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 10:01 PM UTC
Jan,
Don't call me an expert
I just use Google and some engineering skills


Paul,
If you decide to change method on the other sails, the one you have already attached to the yard will stand out like the proverbial sore thumb. The difference between attachment ropes going perpendicular to the yard and those at an angle will be very visible. My opinion of course


Found this text by the way:
"Rope-bands, which fasten the head of the sail along the yard are braided cordage, with an eye on one end, and one leg longer than the other. The eye of the long leg is put over the short leg, and the eye of the short leg is thrust through the eye-let hole at the aftside of the fail, and passes through the eye of the short leg; and so of the rest. The rope-bands, being previously reeved through the head of the sail, fasten to the yard as follows. The long leg comes over the yard from the foreside, with a round turn between the head of the sail; the short leg comes up the aftside, and makes fast with a reef knot upon the yard. The sail is then let fall to see it is cleanly bent. "
Found on this page:
https://books.google.se/books?id=FqI_yvMI6eMC&pg=PT257&lpg=PT257&dq=%22reef+knot%22+bend+sail+yard&source=bl&ots=fFuR23HavS&sig=i1m_o-lQul97yhtLTeCK_21MEaU&hl=sv&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiX6tqmq57SAhVEWCwKHRpOAf0Q6AEIKDAB#v=onepage&q=%22reef%20knot%22%20bend%20sail%20yard&f=false

Looks like an Encyclopedia with expressions/terms listed in alphabetical order.

Trying to make rope-bands to 1:100th scale is more or less impossible so the interesting part of this text would be that reef knots/square knots are used to tie the rope bands on top of the yard



On page 52 of this Google-book:
https://books.google.se/books?id=7apWAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=%22rope-bands%22+sail&source=bl&ots=6oFXkrFnDj&sig=EaeWoV3RmxdR7egIm4FDzvpPuOE&hl=sv&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiRpq-0rp7SAhWE2SwKHUPbC4MQ6AEIKTAC#v=onepage&q=%22rope-bands%22%20sail&f=false
there are a few diagrams. Fig 302 shows how two ropes with an eye on the end of each are attached through the top of the sail. The text discribing it is on page 53.

To replicate this in 1:100th scale I would make the first half of a square knot (half knot, the bottom part when tying shoelaces) to tie the thread to the sail and then a square knot on top of the yard.

This wikipedia article about the reef/square knot
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reef_knot
says that a reef knot is a single slipped square knot (one working or free end forms a bow, a shoelace knot forms two bowsm both ends ae slipped). By pulling on the slipped end the knot unravels. A square knot can "capsize" or "spill" if one of the working ends are pulled hard. This would make it easy to untie the sail from the yard or when used for reefing it will be easy to let the reef out again.

Here: http://www.animatedknots.com/reef/#ScrollPoint
is an animation showing how multiple square knots are made to capsize. It holds well unless a free end is pulled perpendicular to the main tension of the knotted lines, perfect for reefing and attaching sails to yards, easy to tie and easy to undo.

Doing it the spiral way is for quadrilateral and triangular sails which are attached to stays or non horizontal booms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sail_components
Good definitions and useful images.

I have learned a lot from this discussion

/ Robin
pbishop
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Posted: Monday, February 20, 2017 - 03:33 AM UTC
Here is a good diagram of some methods that I should have followed earlier:

pbishop
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Posted: Monday, February 20, 2017 - 07:54 AM UTC
Ok – let the insanity begin. I realized (thanks to Robin) that the initial method of bending (or attaching) the fore course sail to the yard arm was not correct and just didn't look good. When I did it I must have been a little brain dead because I had looked at the data from HiSModel (company that I ordered the sails from) which clearly shows the different methods to attach sails and my method is not correct. Of course I had already attached the yardarm to the fore mast – I always have to make things as difficult as I can. I was now faced with modifying the attachment while the yard arm was even more encumbered with lines. It took a few hours but the results were worth it.

Here is where I started from with old attachment method:


This is the result after changing the attachment method:







RobinNilsson
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Posted: Monday, February 20, 2017 - 08:07 AM UTC
Definitely looks a lot better
Thanks for those diagrams, they will come in handy when I get around to building my 1/96 Revell Cutty Sark and USS Constitution ...
/ Robin
pbishop
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Posted: Monday, February 20, 2017 - 08:13 AM UTC
Thank You!!

Here is another photo of the guys work from HisModels:



Here is a link to the page:
http://www.radekshipmodels.cz/en/workflow/how-to-use-colth-sails
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Monday, February 20, 2017 - 09:09 AM UTC
Bookmarked !!
timmyp
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Posted: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 09:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Ok – let the insanity begin. I realized (thanks to Robin) that the initial method of bending (or attaching) the fore course sail to the yard arm was not correct and just didn't look good. When I did it I must have been a little brain dead because I had looked at the data from HiSModel (company that I ordered the sails from) which clearly shows the different methods to attach sails and my method is not correct. Of course I had already attached the yardarm to the fore mast – I always have to make things as difficult as I can. I was now faced with modifying the attachment while the yard arm was even more encumbered with lines. It took a few hours but the results were worth it.

Here is where I started from with old attachment method:


This is the result after changing the attachment method:










Hello Paul,

I just wanted to ask, in the next-to-last photo, where the end of the thread going through the triple-sheave block ends up? I can fathom that one end is belayed to somewhere on the deck, but I'm not sure about the other end.

Thanks!
timmyp
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Posted: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 09:13 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Been doing some thinking during the day ...

The "perimeter rope" (it has a proper seamanly name ...)
I assume that this rope is thinner than a 2 inch diameter hawser (ropes are usually measured by circumference) so it should be in the vicinity of a quarter millimeter (0.25 mm). Trying to sew this with an even thinner thread is bound to fail.
Are the sails cut to exact size yet? Edit: Dumb question, I see them hanging from your "clothes line" in a previous post ...

Maybe this could work:
1. Lay the sail flat, aft side up, on a non-stick surface (waxed paper, thin teflon sheet, glass, you get the general idea).
2. Lay the thread along one edge
3. Use a small paintbrush to pick up thinned (50/50 ??) acrylic lacquer and apply the lacquer to the thread or possibly in the "shadow" under the thread were it lies on the sail cloth. The idea is to glue the thread with lacquer.
4. Wait until the lacquer has set.
5. Repeat from step 2 with the next edge until finished
6. Trim away excess cloth, unless the sail was already cut to the exact size.

Experiment on some scrap sail cloth first. Maybe with less thinned lacquer. If it fails completely then CA might be the only way to go but it is a lot more difficult to work with.

The reason for recommending acrylic lacquer comes from the experience of using floor polish. Johnson Future if you remember it, it was basically an acrylic lacquer, I think it is called Kleer or something nowadays. This is actually a perfectly usable substitute for many of the acrylic lacquers we buy in the hobby stores ...
The cloth I used to polish the floor went stiff when it dried ...

Eyelets: What sizes are we talking about? Less than 2 inches diameter in 1:1 scale? Brass? Use a very fine brush to set a small spot of paint (brass, black, rust ...) where the eyelet should be. Let it dry and make a hole with a very small drill, just large enough for the thread. Stiffen the end of the thread with CA to avoid having to use a needle and insert the thread.

Are we talking eylets as in thimbles on the ends of ropes?

In this case I would paint the inside of the rope loop with CA and when this has hardened and created a solid surface paint it with the desired colour.

/ Robin



Robin,

I sure do remember Future floor wax! In fact, I think I still have a bottle of it sitting around the house somewhere. If I remember, too, it was water soluble, so the cloth you used to wax the floor, should "come back to life" if you rinse it out under some running water.

Cheers,

Tim
pbishop
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Posted: Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 04:38 AM UTC
Tim,
The top triple block has two eyelets - one on top an one on the bottom. The top one attaches the block to the rope from the mast and the bottom on is attached to the rope that goes through the two triple blocks.
pbishop
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Posted: Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 05:20 AM UTC
I seem to have run into a problem with the fore top sail. It seems to be too long - and no this is not the main mast top sail. To make it fit properly I will have to lower the bottom yardarm a lot – way too much it seems. I can't get an answer from any of my reference material either.

Any suggestions? I've sent these photos to Radek at HisModel to get his feedback - I bought the sails from him.



pbishop
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Posted: Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 07:34 AM UTC
I got a reply from Radek - he is going to make up new topsails for the fore and main masts. Cool!!
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 09:10 AM UTC
Ooopss
A little too much to handle by taking in one reef ....
/ Robin
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Posted: Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 12:12 PM UTC
I've finished adding the two sails on the bow sprit. They were a little touchy to attach but all went well.