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War on Saddam?
sgtreef
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Posted: Monday, June 17, 2002 - 08:11 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hmmmm............the question arises, is this a quagmire to step into........?

.........................a thought.
Most of the 'opinions' posted above are obviously heartfelt frustration at the inability of the U.S. to 'deal' with the Arab world. Certainly a 'brick-wall' challenge to say the least.
Look, I'm not opposed to a little 'triple-tap' . It's not hard work if your commitment is there. The concept that has to be swallowed here is this; Americans have historically always assumed that everyone else thinks like US! Unfortunately, IMHO, that is not the case. Take Somalia for a quick recent example. Or the 'Nam, for a less recent example.
I, fortunately in my opinion, have the advantage of European birth, but American upbringing. To expand, my early education in England was global. My early teen education in the U.S. was purely American. The inherent problem here is that Americans need to understand that the Arabs have NO problem dying. In fact this is their most direct path to Allah. They (in general) believe that the life they are leading NOW is simply the treadmill leading to the afterlife with their ancestors. WE, on the other hand, believe in THIS life.
Without going into a breathless diatribe here, I believe we need to come to grips with the fact that other nations have an entirely different perpective than we do. So, we either have to learn to deal with it, or take the steps necessary to ignore it entirely.
And if the latter is the choice, then maybe we are not the 'leader of the Free World' after all. We're just the most recent Bully.

Tread.

BTW.....for the record, I am a Combat Veteran, have shed my blood for my country, and would do it proudly again if asked.......but those ribbons are on my chest, not across my eyes.



Agree with you Thread,but if we come home now as if it is over then we will be back again to remove the evil arab Saddam and don't forget about our buddy in Libia. I say if they want to go to see Allah then by golly we can send them all to allah and pretty quick. Fuse the whole place into a Giant Glass Sheet
Jeff
Arthur
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Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 03:53 AM UTC
We have unfortunately stumbled onto one of these discussions,where there is no real answer.what i mean by that is we are constrained by our kind of society and the rules we
live by.We live by the rule of law,and that is our handicap.When we do things in war that is
alien to our nature,like fire bombing Dresden,as mentioned by Jim,creating free fire zones
in Vietnam,it usually out of frustration,asthe only way to get at the enemy.Did it ever occur to
any body the reason the IRA was able to carry out killings and bombing for thirty years,long
before the average American citizen came to grips with the results of a terrorist action,and that on the doorstep of the most professional force in the world,the SAS,we were constrained by the rules.When the SAS took the gloves off and hit back (the killing on the Rock of Gibralter) there was uproar even in America.Britain was accused of ahaving a shoot to kill policy,why the hell not!if the gloves were kept off the IRA would not have lasted
five mins,but we gave in to international pressure,and from politicians in the USA.
If we in the West are serious about internatoinal terrorism we are going to have to get
our hands dirty,but you can bet the politicos are not going to get dirty with us.It also means
casualties among our armed forces,and the politicians dont like that.Most soldiers i have listened to expect it,thats their job,its what they are trained to do.I think the gist of all this is
that you have to take out a threat on the ground,spread the message of democracy,give people a chance to live with freedom of choice,something that we seem to take for granted
if that doesn't work................then Nuke Em!
Arthur
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sourkraut
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Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 06:47 AM UTC
a lot of thought must go into something like this,so it doesnt backfire on us.once action is taken it cant be changed.
TreadHead
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Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 10:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text

the coalition had its chance when it asked the Marsh Arabs to rise up against Saddam,they
blew it,chickened out,and the Arabs were slaughtered.And some think the answer is to
Nuke them all friend and foe,all i can say i would not like you for Allies,just my humble
opinion.
Arthur



...just curious......is this the same Arthur?
TreadHead
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Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 11:06 AM UTC
On a lighter note.....

Maybe this is a subject better taken in smaller bites.

".....give people a chance to live with freedom of choice." I believe someone said. Human mentality is a unique thing. Take for example the case of the 'repeat offender'. In a nut shell, there are some people that cannot properly operate in a free society. Their mental processes require a 'controlled' environment. One where a larger organization makes the choices for them. Decides what they wear, when they eat, where they sit and sleep. It's 'easier' that way, the onus is on someone else. Neat package.
Hard for most of us to rationalize, but, never the less, True.
Why was the lure of Socialism? What is the lure of a Dictatorship?

For the former you could ask the growing number of ex-soviets that are starving in a city full of food. For the latter, you could try asking the citizens of either Somalia or Cuba. Maybe they can answer the question.........
Doubt it.
TreadHead
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Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 11:10 AM UTC
...Damn, should have kept my mouth shut! #:-)
blackwolf
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Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 11:36 AM UTC
No, I think this kind of venting is a good thing. I mean were ALL tired of this P.C bull crap that our goverments are shoveling down our gullets. Yes if we just whak the guy the next one will be just as bad or worse. With that said if we dont stop the problam now whats next? A "dirty" bomb germ or cmenical warfare? Look at the Israelis and how many peace treaties they have signed with the Palestinians over the years. Have they worked? In the Chicago Sun Times pg 26 another bus blown up with 10 more people killed and over the past 21 months over 220 people dead due to terrorist attacks! I'm sorry to say that we need to make an example of him (Saddam) so ruthless that no one else will DARE attack the U.S.A. I say unleash the dogs of war. Darn this soap box I'll get off of it now. Scott #:-)
TreadHead
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Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 11:53 AM UTC
O.K...............I'll ask the obvious question. Is the general consensus, that the only thing 'these' people respect is Strength?


TreadHead
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Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 11:57 AM UTC
Hey!......I have no "war on Saddom" (Saddam), Sodom! There was this girl I knew in the Phillipines...................... #:-)
TreadHead
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Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 11:58 AM UTC
Sorry.......just trying to lighten this up a bit!
SS-74
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Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 06:10 PM UTC

Quoted Text

O.K...............I'll ask the obvious question. Is the general consensus, that the only thing 'these' people respect is Strength?





Yes, strength, and brutal force, that's what they recognize, they don't have any respect, nor they should be respected.
sgtreef
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Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 06:30 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

O.K...............I'll ask the obvious question. Is the general consensus, that the only thing 'these' people respect is Strength?





Yes, strength, and brutal force, that's what they recognize, they don't have any respect, nor they should be respected.



Okay your profile says you are from China now if we had China on our side then heck we would not have to worry about what the rest of the world said after we did attack this country. Plus we also need to build up our forces first as we are getting spread pretty thin. Russia is wanting to join in as they suffer these same attacks. Just an opinion
Jeff
Greg
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Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 10:24 PM UTC
We are all thinking short-term here, fellows, a typical American failing because frequently as individuals and nearly always as a culture we have no patience. No matter the irritant, be it Saddam, or the Palestinians, or anything else the violence is the result of long-standing grievances and sociopolitical differences. A recent phenomenon is the tendency to blame the US for all of this, and I go back to the statement about controlled cultures. Some of these people cannot conceive of a superpower that can't/won't (in their view) simply fix things. After all, in their cultural framework the strongest ALWAYS imposes a solution. The fact that we don't do so infuriates them, and so we are perceived to be weak. In that sense, strength is all they understand. I don't claim to offer solutions, but to simply say "nuke 'em" isn't a solution either. What we need to do is formulate a policy objective for a particular problem, and stick with that objective for about a hundred years. The matters we have been discussion cannot be solved by drawing fresh lines on a map; they will require generations of tedious diplomatic and occasionally military effort to defuse. Unfortunately, our political structure and our cultural background makes us blind to this. We are not suited to tackling issues that require commitment of lives and treasure over the long term--say four generations. Until we can state to the world clear policy goals and pursue them intently for over a decade at least, irrespective of changes to our own government, nobody is going to take us very seriously. Frankly, foreign policy is too important to be left to politicians only interested in the next election cycle. Ahh, I long for those idyllicdays of Plato's Republic: the class of philosopher-kings, born and reared to statecraft and serving no other goal....
Greg
Bravo-Comm
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Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 11:29 PM UTC
"IN ORDER TO WIN A WAR, YOU HAVE TO BECOME WAR"

Jhon Rambo

DAGGER-1 "To the Victor, Go The Spoils"
staff_Jim
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Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 01:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Okay your profile says you are from China now if we had China on our side then heck we would not have to worry about what the rest of the world said after we did attack this country.



Dave is from Hong Kong. Correct me if I am wrong Dave but I would imagine there is still a bit of a difference between HK thinking and mainland China. How are things in Hong Kong? I don't see much news about it since '97. I hope capitalism and representitive government is still the rule and not becoming the exception.

Jim
Scunge
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Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 02:27 AM UTC
Down with Saddam, Down with Saddam!!
Arthur
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Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 02:40 AM UTC
Hi Tread...sorry for the late reply,knackered and went to bed,this is the same Arthur.
Arthur
Arthur
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Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 02:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text

On a lighter note.....

Maybe this is a subject better taken in smaller bites.

".....give people a chance to live with freedom of choice." I believe someone said. Human mentality is a unique thing. Take for example the case of the 'repeat offender'. In a nut shell, there are some people that cannot properly operate in a free society. Their mental processes require a 'controlled' environment. One where a larger organization makes the choices for them. Decides what they wear, when they eat, where they sit and sleep. It's 'easier' that way, the onus is on someone else. Neat package.
Hard for most of us to rationalize, but, never the less, True.
Why was the lure of Socialism? What is the lure of a Dictatorship?

For the former you could ask the growing number of ex-soviets that are starving in a city full of food. For the latter, you could try asking the citizens of either Somalia or Cuba. Maybe they can answer the question.........
Doubt it.


Tread...you have just quoted what is the history of civilization,the answers? they would fill
a library,and that is part of what this hobby is about,finding the answers.
ps....you talk a lot of sense.
Arthur.


Eagle
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Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 02:55 AM UTC
Hello guys....I have another two cents to throw in here....

Though I'm as much against Sadam as the next guy , surely nuking and burning the place down can't be the answer to his regime. We can't just nuke or burn everything we do not like.

Do I have the answer to this than ? NO I don't. The only sensible thing I can say over here is that daddy didn't take his chances when he could end the thing on a fairly normal way.

No Sadam has to go.....fast.... and the same applies to his regime also, but within normal perspective. And about daddy....wasn't he the guy that used some goodies during the Gulf War that still bother a number of (former) US troopers ? I just hope those things don't run in the family.....

Don't pay too much attention to my two cents, cause that's all it's worth.
Arthur
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Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 03:36 AM UTC
You hit on something there Danny,we have some US congressmen here at this time
appraising our parliament on Gulf War syndrome,seems that it is a first of its kind.
Arthur
Am Alba Mannich
RufusLeeking
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Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 03:42 AM UTC
I agree with Danny, nukes are not the answer to Saddam. But I do feel we need to take military action against Iraq if there is another attack against the US or her allies. A big mistake by the US was not finishing the job during the "Gulf War". Another mistake the US made was all our flip flopping policies of the 80's and 90's. Going back to the Reagan years, one week we back Iraq the next week Iran, the bottom line was the US wanted to keep the Evil Empire out of the middleast. Now the Soviets are gone, but we are still there trying to put out every little brushfire and figure out who are friends and enemies are.There are no easy answers in that region.
GeneralFailure
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Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 06:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text


if that doesn't work................then Nuke Em!




I've taken some time to read the posts in this forum. To be honest, you guys give me goosepimples.

"Iraq and Afghanistan should be smoking craters" ??? "Nuke them" ???

These are human beings, just like me and you. You think they don't hurt when one of their relatives is maimed or killed ? When they loose one of their children ?
The world will NEVER find a solution to problems like this as long as simple people like you and me react in such agressive way ?

I certainly would not defend the way they act or operate. There is NO excuse for terrorism.

Still, I know for sure that nukes won't bring a solution.

I feel very sad about these reactions.... .


Jan



Eagle
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Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 06:12 AM UTC
Ahmen Jan !!
GeneralFailure
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Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 06:22 AM UTC
Danny,
I understand the reasoning of Daddy when he told Schwartzkopf to back up from Baghdad. Getting rid of uncle Saddam would leave a huge vacuum. The only way out would be to install an occupying force. Before you know it, you're stuck in that desert forever and a day, you get terrorist attacks on your occupying force, etc...
Getting rid of Saddam without the installation of a credible alternative would bring the same problems this time around, too. I hope Junior thinks twice about that before he moves in the A1's and A2's again.

And if the Americans want a stable solution for the middle East, they have to take a credible stand. They will never be taken seriously by the Arabs (not even by the Europeans) if they keep defending every Israeli action.

The world could well do with America's help as a World Police Officer... if it would be willing to take an objective stand. But the problem is... they just can't resist taking sides !

My 2 eurocents


Jan

YodaMan
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Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 09:25 AM UTC
You know Rufus, after reading through this thread I couldn't help but notice your sig line:

Quoted Text

"Give me the good old days when a man carried a club and had a brain the size of a walnut."



I think the above is true for a lot of people, but the clubs have become more technologicaly advanced.

I think the 'nuke 'em' attitude is a little irresponsible towards Saddam. Plenty of other nations would feel threatened if we just turned that region into ash. It's hard to justify taking out Saddam to other nations that don't see or don't want to see the threat of him. Also, the collateral damage from a nuke would be, in my opinion, unacceptable. There's got to be a lot of people in the country who want to do away with Saddam as much as we do.

Anyway, my head hurts (but not from the thread) so I'm going to bed. 'Night y'all!

YodaMan