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Armor/AFV: What If?
For those who like to build hypothetical or alternate history versions of armor/AFVs.
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Landkreuzer P-1000 Ratte
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Friday, November 08, 2013 - 06:46 PM UTC
Saturday, 15 July 2017. Folks, I'm sorry. Photobucket's greed has wiped out the first 29 pages of my build photos and concept "drawings" along with some photos from fellow modelers providing insight and information. Maybe I can edit all my posts with new image tags? We'll see.

Landkreuzer P-1000 Ratte

Yes, let's start this right off the bat; I am a bit daft, but this thing has been itching me for several years now. I truly wish to build one. In 1/35th.

So, I am asking for serious input to a multitude of questions I'll be asking; seeking your thoughts, digging into your knowledge base.

Everything starts at the bottom and works up, right?

The running gear first:



My first impression of the tracks would be that MAUS tracks would be needed. Looking at the above picture (not going to worry too much about scale right now), the Ratte's tracks are individually much narrower.

So, Question 1) Tiger I tracks? JSU's? Others? Three 1.2M sets of tracks on each side. That's 12+ feet of track on each side. Thoughts? I know I can go +/- a bit. The measurements I have are purely supposition..so I can play some.

I'll end this, for now, with that question. I'm heavy into the research phase; that's where all the What-If'er's and interested parties (to this dream) come in.

Once I get the track style/type/et al figured? Heheh, roadwheels. Once those questions are community answered, the rest will be easy(ier).

Thanks all. I am quite serious about this. There's no way I can scratch tracks, so they have to be available.

Mike
LeftyDan
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Posted: Friday, November 08, 2013 - 09:04 PM UTC
Hi Mike,

I was actually thinking about this the other day. I think it'll make for quite the impressive model. I was doing a little peeking around the net to see and I came across this picture.



This is one of the few pictures I saw that had a good view of the tracks. It looks like the tracks of a Tiger II, but the tracks seem longer.

I also found this person here was/is making a 1/72nd scale model of it. http://s766.photobucket.com/user/santeclous/media/Scratch%20Built%20Models/001_1.jpg.html

It's going to be massive. I will try to help you conceptualize this however I can. Oh, and I like the Dual turret guns on the back. There's also what seems to be a kugelblitz turret in the back in front of the rear turret
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Friday, November 08, 2013 - 09:18 PM UTC
Thanks Daniel. My intent (tho this is VERY premature) are two MAUS turrets. Regarding the track length; oh YEAH. WAY longer. I guesstimate EACH run will cost six to seven full lengths of track to the standard kit. To save track, I've got a plan...based on side skirts...when THAT question comes up.

I'm going to do this, but I need ya'll's help.

Mike

p.s. Great picture BTW...haven't pulled that one yet. I'm a lover of the quad Flak's...ya gotta know they'll be on it.
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Friday, November 08, 2013 - 09:26 PM UTC
Daniel, regarding the pic you provided the link to: I'm going with the longer hull...room for the MAUS turrets, Kubel's (inner) and Flak 38's (outer). Most def see a Kubel on the main turret.

Mike
LeftyDan
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Posted: Friday, November 08, 2013 - 11:25 PM UTC
Hey Mike,

Here's what I see. This is definitely some artist speculation, so you have plenty of artistic license here. I see that design being a tab more realistic. But the wikipedia page states the armament would be:

2x 280 mm 54.5 SK C/34s (A Naval Rifle)
1x 128 mm KwK 44 L/55 (PaK version mounted on Jagdtigers)
8x 20 mm Flak 38s (Does not state if it is single mounted or quad)
2x 15 mm MG 151/15s (really? Just 2?)

Thou, given the german tendency to up arm everything, I could easily see the guns being upgraded to Kugelblitzs. Which were 30mms. Ebay lists several of the verlinden kits for cheap. I'll have to pick one up at least. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Verlinden-1-35-Panzer-IV-FlaK-Turret-Kugelblitz-Flakpanzer-IV-Conversion-1135-/181166017936?pt=Model_Kit_US&hash=item2a2e560d90

With a given length of 115 ft and 46 ft wide....this thing would of been a giant bullseye to P-47s and IL-2s.

As for the two rear turrets. Those are Maus/E100 Flakzwilling dual 8.8cms. I saw the turret itself years ago in a Fine Scale Modeler. A quick search shows that 5M hobby (I never heard of them) made or makes a kit.

http://www.onthewaymodels.com/kitlists/7starhobbykits.htm

Not to add more to it, but there was supposedly going to be a bay for 2 BMW motorcycles.

Btw, anything I can do to help, via speculation or even building some things I can try to assist you with, just drop me a line here.
DazzaD
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Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 02:32 AM UTC
Hi Tac,

I would love to see this beast in 1/35 but it is going to take a whole lot of work and it will be massive.

You could do just about anything you want with it since it was almost all speculation and nothing was ever built. If you are are serious about making it to spec you will struggle to find any real 'spec'. Almost every version I have seen is different, it is all in the artists imagination.

The only hard fact I know of is in the Spielberger and Doyle 'Special Panzer Variants' Pg 137-
"Krupp suggestion for a 1000-ton giant tank was offered. On June 23, 1942 Hitler examined the plans of the Krupp firm's Engineer Grote for such a vehicle with great interest".

it goes on to say:
"This assignment led to a drawing board design for a 1500-ton tank with an 80cm gun and two 15cm turrets at the rear".

No pictures of the drawings, but I would guess they would be rather boring that early in the design. If I was you I would go by feel. What do you think would happen in the 1000+ changes from that first drawing to the prototype.

My guess is a gigantic behemoth chunk of metal, with a battle ship turret and as many AA guns as they could fit on the lid. If you get this thing built in 1/35, I don't think anyone could have a go at you for getting it wrong. There is no wrong, when the thing was never built!

Good luck, I will be watching with close interest! Best of luck! Hope you get into it!

Karl187
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Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 06:20 AM UTC
My first thought on tracks regarding this vehicle had me thinking of E-100 tracks- they are longer than Tiger II links- but I'm not sure if the shape and general make-up would suit as much as the Tiger II style might.

I must say this is a very ambitious project of a subject I'm interested in myself. I hope you have the best of luck with it.

I think Dan is right about the rear turrets- they are from the E series Flakpanzer. I think perhaps, given the size of this thing as Dan mentioned- more AA protection would likely be needed. The bay for motorcycles also got me thinking about the Kugelpanzer- it was relatively small- a simple ramp and station at the rear would allow them to be deployed quickly from that area.
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 11:02 AM UTC
One of the things that most concerned me I read about the running gear was a supposed 2 meter clearance under the hull (for fording). If I ignore that...the road wheels will be easier (2m clearance = some huge huge road wheels).

But:



Any way you look at it, it's a load of 'em! I thought about using the road wheels from a 1/25th JagdPanther I have as a template. So, 14 or so road wheels x 2 per track x 6 tracks = 168 road wheels + 6 drive sprockets + 6 idlers. And however many return rollers. Oy. I think I'll use the picture above as the reference for that layout.

A quick "in regards to the armament:" THE one thing that is a must of course are the two 280mm guns in the main turret. That alone makes this beast what it is. For the rear, I will use two MAUS turrets with their standard barrels. I may add something like a JagdPanter or JagdTiger mantlet and barrel to the glacis (for front anti-tank defense). I love the German AA. A lot. So, for "looks," I'd like two Flak 38's mounted and two to four of the Kugel's. I may put a Kugel on top of the 280's turret also.

So, next step: See if these tracks (see below) and the 1/25 JagdPanther road wheels will mate in some way.



Gents, thanks for the input. Please, keep it coming.

Mike
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 11:05 AM UTC
One more picture as food for thought:



LeftyDan
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Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 12:57 PM UTC
Hi Mike,

Good to see you looking into it. I see in both pictures 14 wheels per side. The first one has no return rollers, whereas the second one I assume does as the tracks go into the side skirts. Based on the pictures I see, the height of the wheels would be about 6 feet. In scale thats 2.057 inches. Seem right so far?

Following the first picture there seems to be 1 set of wheels on the outside track, but I feel like that would cause the track to slip often. I do not think that the road wheels would have to be 2 meters, but rather that the engines have to be able to breathe 2 meters up. Similar to how a M113 can go beyond tracks deep, as the engine doesn't draw air from that low. Guessing on the suspension, I would imagine they would use Torsion bar, as I doubt a spring leaf suspension would handle a) that much weight and b) weight that distributed.

That model is fairly impressive. Someone made one in a small scale? It looks like, and I will probably be wrong that there are 8 radiators and 6 access ports. This would be the design that called for DB MB501 engines.....8 of them. Intelligently, both engines that they thought of using were diesels.

I may poke with Pro-E Wildfire here. I've had it for awhile, never had a reason to use it.
Naseby
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Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 03:16 PM UTC
Very interesting project. Im not an engineer but I suspect that those drive sprockets would never have the strengh to move such thing. Also the links on the tracks would probably crack. Anyway i will be watching this one with interest.
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 08:01 PM UTC
Dan,

I plan to go the route of return rollers under the side skirts. Ultimately, that may save me some track. I still need to check those 1/25th JP road wheels to see how they'll look and what their 1/35th size will be. I'd hate to have to use 1/6th scale road wheels...that's a lot of resin and casting which I'd need to sub out to someone.

Oh, after thought; found some 1/6th road wheels here. If I gotta buy them, I'll go broke! LOL!

The tracks will have to have a two road wheel depth. One would not work in real life nor in building it.

Mike
nng-nng
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Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 08:44 PM UTC
nice and interresting Project...

the German Wikipeda site links referrs to drafts from 29. Dezember 1942 with the Draft No. E-30404/1 by Krupp, Fritz Hahn

According to my german skills , you should find them on page 92 in "Waffen und Geheimwaffen des deutschen Heeres 19331945. Bernard & Graefe, Bonn 1998, ISBN 3-7637-5915-8"

Maybe someone got the book an can tell whats on page 92...
corsair924
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Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 09:19 PM UTC
Nice project,
I think that just about every modeler considers doing it at least once in their favorite scale.
And like you I prefer 1/35 so when I make mine it too will fill the workbench.

As for propulsion, I read that is was supposed to be a couple of U-boat diesels totaling 2,8003,200 hp but this sounds completely inadequate:
Figure the Maybach in a Tiger 2 was rated at about 700hp for a 70ton tank (rounding both)
But taking the Ratte to 1000 tons =14x heavier while giving it 3000hp gives you 3hp/ton
The T2 was already a dog at 9hp/ton.
But if you start with the dimensions of the U-Boat engine room to help laying out the interior.

Personally I'd just bomb the hell out of the thing but even if you ignore airplanes how do you replace the track if it hits a landmine? 'Cause if it can't climb hills where its gonna travel will become very predictable.
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 09:42 PM UTC
Fabian,

Not a book I have, so...here's hoping someone does! That'd be pretty cool. Vielen Dank!

Mike
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 09:52 PM UTC
LOL J Poitras!! I haven't broke track in 15+ years; I'll leave that to the younger pups in uniform!

I too read about the U-Boat diesels. IIRC, there were multiples, hooked inline. Regardless, I'm not doing the innards of this behemoth.

Well, with maybe one exception; where the BMW's and Tiger could be dismounted. This is in my "thought process" but not a key piece. IF I can, I will.

I like the picture I posted that shows some of the back end stuff; exhaust, spare tracks and road wheels (looks cool and nice).

Perhaps (and more plausible because the engines are in the rear) a ramp in the front under or coming from the glacis? Alas, that's about 10 steps ahead.

Mike
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Monday, November 11, 2013 - 11:48 AM UTC
Hey all interested parties.

Here's the 1/35th King Tiger Friuls and the 1/25th JagdPanther tracks:



The JP tracks are just a bit wider.

The JPs road wheel on the Friuls:



Technically a great fit between the Friuls and JP road wheels:



The JP road wheels measure in at about 4 feet in 1/35th scale. If I use those and return rollers, I should be good.

Thoughts? The running gear will be the hardest to source/figure out...and probably the most costly. I don't have a budget yet ('cause I'm fairly broke ), so the most economical way is the way to go without giving up realism.

Mike

Edit: I'll be contacting Academy to see about purchasing the sprues that contain the road wheels, sprockets, idlers, and track...
sassgrunt
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Posted: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 - 02:43 AM UTC
Message sent about some extra Panther roadwheels I have, if they'll help.
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 - 11:42 AM UTC
Thanks Mike!! Message sent back.

I've also emailed MRC/Academy regarding the 'replacement' sprues. If I go this route, I figure I need about 8 sets total (1-1/4 tanks worth of the JP's running gear per run of track for the Ratte). I'd lay out the road wheels just like the Panther's; staggered. This would allow for me to spread things out a wee bit as needed.

Once I've gotten (assuming I can) these parts, I can start on the hull tub.

We'll see.

Mike
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Friday, November 15, 2013 - 08:33 AM UTC
Put a post on Model Shipwrights seeking information about the main turret, but based on the little I could glean from the internet, in 1/35th, the turret alone will be:

18" in length
13.5" in width
5" in height

That'll leave about 20" (+/-) for all the 'smaller' armaments.

At this time, I'm trying to source 1/25th Academy or Tamiya Panther/JagdPanther running gear (road wheels, sprockets, track).

Mike
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Friday, November 15, 2013 - 07:58 PM UTC
So, I know what, and how many, parts and pieces to do the running gear. Feelers are out for Academy/Tamiya Panther/JP parts.

I know that the engine deck is going to me made up of 1/35th German spare decks (four rows - outer row one style, inner row a second style); just need to figure out which (literally) looks the coolest.

I know I'll have two MAUS turrets on the back end.

I know I'll have at least four (two to a side behind the MAUS') Kugles.

I think I'll have a JagdPanther/JagdTiger main gun in the front.

What I'm NOT yet sure about are the anti-Infantry weapons. Thinking one MG on each front fender for sure. Contemplating a few near the ladders going up the tank's chassis (I expect to have two ladders per side and two in the rear). I'm also contemplating some 'form' of "pill box" type weapons station at the rear center.

This pic kinda shows what I'd like for the JP/JT main gun, the ladders up the sides AND a potential spot for the ramp for the Recon MCs:



Pretty sure I have the basics down. But, need to:

1) Confirm the Main Turret dimensions (as close as possible [did find one pic that I can come close on, so may just go with it]).

2) Acquire enough running gear to complete one complete run (of the six).

3) Start the hull tub with that complete set.

4) Work with you interested parties to hash out/define/tune my/our ideas.

Mike

Edit: Do I need to build a Crow's Nest for the Tank's Commander???????
nng-nng
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Posted: Friday, November 15, 2013 - 08:44 PM UTC
Hi,
read somewere they wanted to use a double 28cm naval gun turret, which seems to be a standard tipple without the midddle gun... The Geisenau for example had them, and they were removed as she got bigger gun, the trurrets served later on as costal defence.... so there sould be enough rooom for some reference... when Im not wrong someone strted them in 1:35 some time ago...

good luck with the rest of your todo

TacFireGuru
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Posted: Friday, November 15, 2013 - 09:26 PM UTC
nng-nng,

Yep, been surfing the interwebs vigorously! The main turret's dimensions I posted above. Not exact, but, barring information to refute my findings (yes, I'm rather impatient), I'll go with them. Full on scratch main battle turret with dimensions based on what I've been able to pull. I have the base dimensions and angles. It'll be 'rough', but unless you're a shipwright with blue prints, I truly don't think you'll know.

I "uncovered" the Ratte's turret myth. Not one was built or designed for it. Oh, they had plans, but the turrets to use were sent to three coastal defense sites. Pretty flippin' cool to dig into this.

So, unless I get something from Model Shipwrights regarding dimensions, I'll move forward in that direction. First though, my previous post's four key items.

SIDE NOTE: Regarding my edit about the Crow's Nest; TWO commanders? TWO separate "commands?" Hmmmm....

Mike
LeftyDan
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Posted: Friday, November 15, 2013 - 11:59 PM UTC
Good to see you're making progress. I could see there being two commanders....more like several. You have the two naval guns, the coaxial? gun, the AA arrangements, and the Maus Turrets. There's a lot of command and control there needed.

I would guess there would be 1 overall commander, with separate commanders for the different weapons teams. I would also think the commander would be in the hull somewhere, in a CIC like arrangement.

I agree with your build progression so far.

Oh, and thats an awesome picture you posted.
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Saturday, November 16, 2013 - 12:14 AM UTC
Thanks for the input Dan.

You know, every tank has a commander and their own cupola. This though, goes beyond. Waaaay past the norm.

Ah...I could put a Commander's cupola here or there..but, looking at this thing, from the variety of images, WHERE would the overall commander be? Where would his post be? On top of the main turret? Nah, to high, too noisy, too out of the way.

I can see a Commander of Maneuver and Commander of Armament (self defense), and a Commander of Offense. And THE overall Commander. Four. A Colonel and three light Colonels? LOL, should be interesting.

Mike