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Crossing the Yalu
SS-74
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Vatican City
Member Since: May 13, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 04:47 PM UTC
Hi Guys,

What if General MacArthur was authorized to crossed Yalu, and strike Red China in the early stage of Korean war?

That should be interesting.....
penpen
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Hauts-de-Seine, France
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Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 09:15 PM UTC
I don't know how commited the chinese were in korea. Did they use most of their armor ? most of
their men ?
Anyway, there was still a hughe population that could be called into the army.
And the USSR was still an active ally of the chinese at that time...
Greg
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Oregon, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 11:59 PM UTC
Cross the Yalu...two words: BAD IDEA.
Actually, we could not have done it. The Chinese were very much threatened by 8th Army's advance, and began infiltrating into North Korea weeks before they launched their counteroffensive in November of 1950. No way they would have allowed an river crossing operation to happen; they would have ambushed it in a manner that made Chosin reservoir look like a cake walk. In order to cross, it would naturally have been necessary to gain control of the air. The Chinese had lots of air bases and MiG-15s in Manchuria, just across the border. We didn't have the muscle to take down that air complex without using nukes. Macurthur might have countenanced that, but Truman sure wouldn't. An operation across the Yalu would likely have brought in the Soviets, too. Patton was long dead, but the Russians would have given him his war in Germany. Just the wrong END of Germany. In other words, attempt to cross the Yalu and World War Three begins.
Greg
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 12:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Cross the Yalu...two words: BAD IDEA.
Actually, we could not have done it. The Chinese were very much threatened by 8th Army's advance, and began infiltrating into North Korea weeks before they launched their counteroffensive in November of 1950. No way they would have allowed an river crossing operation to happen; they would have ambushed it in a manner that made Chosin reservoir look like a cake walk. In order to cross, it would naturally have been necessary to gain control of the air. The Chinese had lots of air bases and MiG-15s in Manchuria, just across the border. We didn't have the muscle to take down that air complex without using nukes. Macurthur might have countenanced that, but Truman sure wouldn't. An operation across the Yalu would likely have brought in the Soviets, too. Patton was long dead, but the Russians would have given him his war in Germany. Just the wrong END of Germany. In other words, attempt to cross the Yalu and World War Three begins.
Greg



Greg--I can only echo your input. Right on! We should have had the political courage to stop just north of Pyongyang (sp?), the Noth Korean capital. The Chinese want a buffer zone which is why they prop up the North. Give it to them. It was a super dumb move in 1950 and is a ticket to disaster for the future. There will never be a united Korea. The Chinese do not want it and they are the biggest guys on the block in that neck of the woods. My opinion.
DJ
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 12:40 AM UTC

Perhaps WW-3 MIGHT have begun. But don't you think that we would have been victorious in the end. I think that you are selling our country short when you sell the idea that Communism and it's upstarts in both China and the Soviet Union might have defeated us and our leaders. There is certainly the possibility that the worlds geography might look a little different today had it gone into WW-3. But as a god fearing nation (At that point in our history) And our leadership was ALOT more Braver and steadfast in it's decision making. We as a nation should perhaps be thankful that we never had to find out. But on the other hand. What makes you so sure that Both China and Russia having seen our country and HOPEFULLY G.B's determination to end the posssible spread of Communism into the Western Hemisphere. Might not have backed down?? it would have come down to who had the greatest will power to see it thru to the end. My only dispute with history has been the fact the the U.S and Or the U.N. (HA-HA) did not do the right thing when it came down to Mr Castro and eliminated that problem in our own back yard.

DAGGER-1 When Science Fails, Brute Force Win's.
Greg
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 12:53 AM UTC
Dagger-1, in answer to your first question--no. No, we would not have been victorious. And although I have the greatest respect and admiration for the WW2 generation and their little brothers who fought in Korea, their supposed moral superiority over today's Americans (as you appear to postulate) doesn't wash. Great people, probably more patriotic than most folks today. But not supermen. You are talking about picking a fight with two countries whose combined population was even then a billion people. One of them had nukes. Both of them had political interests in the region that went beyond the ideology of the moment and were willing to fight hard to protect those interests. And also probably willing to devastate our allies in Europe to get to us. NOBODY has ever won a two front war, and I don't believe we would have been the first. Have you ever seen the movie Bridges at Toko-Ri? Great commentary on the era..lots of Americans thought we had no business fighting in Korea. Whether that was right or wrong is irrelevant, those people voted and had to be listened to. DJ, you are right on--until the Chinese see a benefit to a united Korea it won't happen.

As for Cuba, we tried the military route and almost started World War Three there, too. At this point, Castro is irrelevant and hardly communist anymore. End the embargo, build the hotels, and watch Cuba become our best freind over the next 25 years. Life's better when you talk money to your enemies so they become your friends and give you the opportunity to make more money. It's all about economics, in the final analysis...
Greg
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 01:12 AM UTC

Point well taken Greg. As I mentioned it is perhaps a good thing that we never had to find out.. As for Cuba?? I'm not so sure that Money would walk all that well in that country. I honestly believe that Mr Castro has his Poor Fellow country men and women so Brain washed that it is OKAY to be POOR and desloute. This way they have some one else ( The U.S.) to blame for thier misery. And this way they don't see the truth and go throw that worthless dictator out on his ear. It's like "YOU SEE" See how the U.S. Bullies us and keeps us down. See How much better it is to have a controlled nation where No one has anything so no one will want to steal from you or kill you as they do in that. SInful nation called the U.S. ?? And of course they don't know any better so they blindly believe and follow him. Oh yeah he does allow a little bit of stuff to get imported to his nation. BUT who do you think REALLY gets the LION SHARE of ther preofit's. HINT HINT It aint the people that Mr Castro swore to protect and defend. The only way we as a country will ever see any positive change come about in that island nation will be the day that OLD GEEZER passes from this world on to the one he deserves. i.e. H-E-L-L

DAGGER-1 When Science Fails, Brute Force Win's.
Greg
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 01:29 AM UTC
Dagger-1, thee is no doubt that there are elements of truth to the "US Bully" line of reasoning within Cuba. And to a degree it is warranted. Likewise, you are correct in noting that Casto's cronies get most of the wealth that the place manages to generate. And I suspect many in Cuba are simply waiting for him to die so that change can happen. They aren't fools; they can watch the evening news from Miami on TV. They know what they don't have, and are reminded of it by the Canadians, Brits, Germans, and others who vacation there and leave their money behind. The only ones missing out are us, who can't go there and leave OUR money behind. I'm sure the Cuban people would love to have us visit and drop a thousand dollars each in hotel, meals, tours, etc. My point is that if we end the embargo and engage them, the cronies will eventually be done away with. The don't control everything so tightly that they can siphon it all and keep the population destitute. Not for long, anyway, and we have leverage too. Massive US investment would certainly come with political strings attached. And American money from tourists would come with small-scale political pressure as well. Hard to argue against a market economy and democracy when one sees the $$ coming into your till. The conversion to a market economy will be messy, and there will be inequitable wealth distribution. But that doesn't last forever, because as rule of law takes hold in a society those excesses slowly get purged. That happend here, it is slowly happnening in Russia, and will happen in Cuba. My feeling is that the sooner it happens the better for the Cubans, and we might as well help it along by enjoying the scenery, the climate, and make our case with money and good fellowship.
Greg
Bravo-Comm
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 02:00 AM UTC
And I do not disagree with you on that either. It has always pained me to see people so close to our own shorer living in such poverty All becuase of one man who refuses to come out from the shadow of the past. Knowing full well how well his nation COULD flourish if only.......And yet each time he has come to visit with our leaders and made nice promises only to find out that he was talking out both sides of his lying mouth. And TOO as you aptly pointed out. OUR own Goverment does nothing to really help the matter either. So all we can do is sit back and hope that some day we might be able to set on those beautiful sun drenched beaches and enjoy Cuba's scenery. Until then it's ..."IF ONLY"

DAGGER-1 When Science Fails, Brute Force WIn's
penpen
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Hauts-de-Seine, France
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 03:26 AM UTC
You must remember that Castro was backed by his people when he came to power. Today, we know that he's no more than a dictator, but then it was all different.
He was there to replace a corrupt non-democratic government. And you must remember that this government was US-backed !
Wilson, the american president, said that the people from the world were entitled to choose their rulers. He didn't say that the people from the big country nearby had their word to say !
The same thing happened in South Vietnam and in Iran. The US backed a corrupt government that wasn't backed by it's own people. They went against the will of the people, and in that way they allowed extremists to gain the heart of the people.
Please understand me, I'm not anti-american. I'm only saying that if you want stability in your own "backyard" (an expression I dislike very much because it's dismissive to the people who live there), what you've got to promote is peace, welth, and democracy.

remember, I'm of the peaceful kind !
Greg
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Oregon, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 03:58 AM UTC
Oh, absolutely, Penpen! I don't forget for a moment that Castro was the people's choice, replacing a rapacious dictator whose only redeeming feature was that he was in league with the sugar barons who wished to keep Cuba in something akin to slavery. I say redeeming feature only insofar as the US government bought into that at the time. Personally, I think that we Americans have made many grave mistakes by not following our own precepts about national self-determinatin and allowing short-term political reasons or dogma to cloud our judgement. The Cubans were right to get rid of Batista; too bad the guy they selected wasn't much better. But we were unwilling to help the Cubans help themselves, and so allowed a situation to develop that Castro exploited.

Same thing in Vietnam. A nationalist freedom fighter there came to the US government in late 1945 asking for help in getting rid of the colonial French, who had come back in a big way after the war. One problem, this fellow happened to call himself Communist because they seemed to be the only political group at the time talking about national self-determination. Not a bad guy, really, this Ho Chi Minh. The fact that he approached us instead of Moscow or Beijing speaks for itself. But we blew him off, backed the French, and paid for it with ten years of trauma and 57,000 lives. Better to have given him the help he wanted, eased the French out, and let him create a unified socialist Vietnam. It happened anyway, we just delayed it. And there are other examples, like the Shah of Iran...
Greg
Arthur
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 04:14 AM UTC
Here in the UK the Korean War is called the forgotten war,the military leaders did the ordinery soldiers US and Eouropean a great disservice,they led them to believe the PLA
were indifferent soldiers and poorly led,and it came as a shock when front line troops
were hurled back with bloody losses.I dont know much about the US forces,ie..Regular
troops or National Guard,but a good many of tha British army was made up from.National
Service men.and Territorial(part time)units,the fact that these men fought back with such courage,and stopped the Chinese was magnificent,and saved the necks of a lot of incompetent prats.....When you consider that the main Chinese tactic was the Human Wave
you begin to realise what an achievment it was.Just to finish my waffling on,Mao was desparate for us to cross the Yalu,and when we didnt he came after us,if we had done what he wanted,i think it would have been a blood bath......its only my humble opinion..i could be wrong.........but its fun to discuss it guys
cheer
Arthur
penpen
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 04:31 AM UTC
When you think about it, it's true that the communist countrys had a lot to prove. And I believe the leaders often believed in in "the revolution". So they were certainly willing to risk millions of lives, destruction of countries... and so on...
210cav
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 08:04 AM UTC
Wow! Cuba. Emotional flash point. Does an embargo make sense? Would we not better influence the political situation by trading with the Cubans? What does the embargo do for our Country? Tough questions to reflect upon without a definitive answer...I liked to see where we can kick thi can to
thanks
DJ
SS-74
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 03:16 PM UTC
IMHO, I think if we did cross Yalu, we could push beyond Manchuria and once the armor formation get to the great Northern China plain, then it's pretty much open country.

My grandfather served in Nationlist Chinese Army back then, (He was one of the few selected officer whom attended military training in Germany in the 30's) and nationlist offered to cross Formosa and hit Mainland China from the south once UN cross the Yalu in the North. I don't know if it's a long shot or not for an army which is just retreated from Mainland, but the thing is most of the Nationlist soldiers would like to fight their way back home, so we have to take this into consideration while thinking about how combat effective they would be.

To coin a phrase from Crimson Tide "Nuke them, by all means, Twice!"

210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 07:51 PM UTC

Quoted Text

IMHO, I think if we did cross Yalu, we could push beyond Manchuria and once the armor formation get to the great Northern China plain, then it's pretty much open country.

My grandfather served in Nationlist Chinese Army back then, (He was one of the few selected officer whom attended military training in Germany in the 30's) and nationlist offered to cross Formosa and hit Mainland China from the south once UN cross the Yalu in the North. I don't know if it's a long shot or not for an army which is just retreated from Mainland, but the thing is most of the Nationlist soldiers would like to fight their way back home, so we have to take this into consideration while thinking about how combat effective they would be.

To coin a phrase from Crimson Tide "Nuke them, by all means, Twice!"




Dave--to say the least, you presented the most rosy and optimistic scenario possible. The Nationalist Chinese government was as corrupt as the Clinton aministration (that's pretty bad). It would have taken a gargantum effort just to get them ready to move out of Formosa. Who would sustain them once they arrived in China? The logistics of moving a substantial force into China would overwhelm even our current military. As for placing armor in the Northern plains of China, where would we have gotten it from? We demobilized after WW II. The armor was not to be had, they took monument tanks from Fort Knox for godsakes and sent them to Korea. It would be pure fantasy to have done more than what we did in Korea. What we lacked was the political will and vision to employ the military within reasonable limits to attain a given end state. Does anyone expect that the people of this Nation would support an invasion of China after finishing four years of conflict? Think not...my two cents.
DJ
penpen
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Hauts-de-Seine, France
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Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 08:14 PM UTC
Personaly, i'd be glad if several embargoes stopped. I believe that they
don't serve the right political aims, and that they hurt the wrong people.
Because of the embargo, the poor cannot find anymore the little that they desperately need and that
they could hardly afford before.
On the other hand, the leaders, those that we want to hurt, have far enough money to find what
they want.
I completely agree on a ban on arm sames to certain countrys, but not on food and medicine.
And also, think about the people who suffer and die because of that. Who are they going to blame ?
Well, rather logicaly, the people who won't allow them to have milk for their baby. And that's us !
It doesn't help them to overthrow their dictators !
It applies to several countries : Cuba, but also Irak...

amazing : there are far fewer smileys in this thread than in the other ones...
ponysoldier
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Posted: Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 11:10 AM UTC
Gawd that got deep quick. Cross the Yala well if Mac had tried and they were close
it would have been a blood bath. Just as in any conflict sans our war with england,
both of them we have down sized and by far to much{my two cents} Some of my
knowledgeable young friends have reminded me that russian armor was superior
to what we had , { something I;ll still debate} I do digress dont I . We would not have
gotten far in nothing more than infantry the chicoms could have put 200 or more
divisions against us. Cuba if kenndy had approved air support it might have been
different I do agree some what with the cash thread some have spoke of.
Yea we have picked some bad allies through the years all the aformenitioned
were bad choices.{we didnt do to well with france either} no disrespect to our
french friends Just a thread here because it is the asian land mass.
What if we had just rolled into n. vietnam? thanks penpen.


ponysoldier
sourkraut
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Posted: Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 11:17 AM UTC
russian armor my have been superior in the early part of the war but not in the late war period
ponysoldier
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Posted: Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 12:01 PM UTC
How many tanks did we have that could field better than a hv 76mm sure we had
some 90mm there but most were m4s which burned quickly. dont misunderstand
we could have got past the yala. many units were little more than regimental
combat teams any they were understrengh. Macs end run caused an intell problem
in china they thought there were more troops coming in than there was.Mac was
infantry minded we needed about 4armored divisions per infantry division than what
we had to do that job. Mac was smart enough there were others that could have done
it to but in the end the chinese mass would have pushed us back farther back than
what we were.


ponysoldier
penpen
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Hauts-de-Seine, France
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Posted: Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 08:04 PM UTC
Well ponysoldier I find it very logical to hear someone criticizing France, because I think
that like every country it made a lot of errors.
And I can say that there's a lot in the past and the present of my country that I'm nt proud of.
But still, I believe that in an honnest give and take "relationship" it is a good ally of the US.
I don't know much about armor so I won't allow myself to argue too much on such subjects
(despite the fact that I love to argue, as you've already guessed... ).
But still I'd like to reflect on the fact that the best "weapon" that the US used in Europe not to see
it becom completely communist was probably the marshal paln ! Thanks to it, countries could be rebuilt,
jobs were created, and poverty diminished. That way, fewer people were tempted by communism
at the elections.
210cav
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 10:45 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Gawd that got deep quick. Cross the Yala well if Mac had tried and they were close
it would have been a blood bath. Just as in any conflict sans our war with england,
both of them we have down sized and by far to much{my two cents} Some of my
knowledgeable young friends have reminded me that russian armor was superior
to what we had , { something I;ll still debate} I do digress dont I . We would not have
gotten far in nothing more than infantry the chicoms could have put 200 or more
divisions against us. Cuba if kenndy had approved air support it might have been
different I do agree some what with the cash thread some have spoke of.
Yea we have picked some bad allies through the years all the aformenitioned
were bad choices.{we didnt do to well with france either} no disrespect to our
french friends Just a thread here because it is the asian land mass.
What if we had just rolled into n. vietnam? thanks penpen.


ponysoldier



Interesting point. While I believe we could have done more to cause North Vietnam to negotiate a more equitable solution to the war, invading it was not in the cards. We should, however, have employed the USMC in their role as amphibious warriors to raid and seize terrain in the North. This would have caused the North's leadership to withhold vital resources of men and material to guard against further incursions. Imagine if we seize haiphong harbor for a limited period, destroyed the cargo (not the foreign flagged ships) and then left. Tell me they would not have said, "we're in big trouble now." Might have worked.
DJ
penpen
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Hauts-de-Seine, France
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Posted: Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 11:06 PM UTC
Well, that would've been a tough operation !
Because I guess such targets were rather well defended. At least, they had heavy flack,
because they used to be mined once in a while by american planes.
And also, it would've meant, street fighting, to hold the port until your mission is acomplished
and you can withdraw. And that's a rather nasty situation to withdraw from !
Also, it would've been a political risk. There were great risks of hurting foreign goods or people.
And with the politicians taking too many tactical decisions...
Michel
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France
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Posted: Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 11:15 PM UTC
I read somewhere that the Korean war was an USSR commies trick to put the US at war with the Red China....And then, fight the weaked victor ? !
Talkin' about past errors, could I remember to our beloved US ally that we were at war against the reds, in Nam and Laos, before US citizens know WHERE was Indochina...!
And we were pretty alone....Then, few years later, our no less beloved Government did the same mistake, at the same very place !
" Is there any intelligent life on Earth...? ", was askin' a weekly magazine, sometime ago....! :-)
By the way, if the US went through the northern korean border, I ' m sure we wouldn' t be here...Too many empty, and nuke heads !
Pour Penpen: " I ' m not proud of...", tu veux parler de LoftStory 2....? !
' ve a nice day...!
penpen
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Hauts-de-Seine, France
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Posted: Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 11:42 PM UTC
Hello Mike
About not being proud, I was rather talking about colonialism... but it's true that when you think of the
bullsh.t that's on TV ( loftstory = bigbrother )...
It's unfair to the american to say that they didn't help the french in Indochina. They accepted to sell
tanks, planes... They even diverted planes that were awaited for their war in korea ( the b26 invader).
They even lent transport planes with their crews to help with the transportation effort which was a
great problem.
Of course, officialy, they weren't helping all that much because they couldn't say that colonialism
was right ! And today when I hear people who are still proud of having being part of organisations
like the OAS ( a very violent group, consisting of members of the army, that was against freedom of
algeria) it makes me very uncomfortable...
Things went in a smoother way where a peaceful process took place. And comunism didn't always
develop there.