COB--good to hear from you. Looking forward to reading more about future developments.
thanks
DJ
History Club
Military history and past events only. Rants or inflamitory comments will be removed.
Military history and past events only. Rants or inflamitory comments will be removed.
Hosted by Frank Amato
Most important carrier opperation
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 11:39 PM UTC
ModlrMike
Member Since: January 03, 2003
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Posted: Monday, June 30, 2003 - 05:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I seem to remember that it will have electromagnetic catapults vice steam catapults ( another Brit innovation by the way)
Not keeping score, but add landing system and angled deck to the Brit innovation list. It might be fair to say that modern carriers owe their current configurations to British post-war design.
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Monday, June 30, 2003 - 06:16 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI seem to remember that it will have electromagnetic catapults vice steam catapults ( another Brit innovation by the way)
Not keeping score, but add landing system and angled deck to the Brit innovation list. It might be fair to say that modern carriers owe their current configurations to British post-war design.
I am hoping that is a collaborative effort. Regardless, the British also tamed the Corsair for carrier operation in WW II and aided the development of the escort carrier concept. Pretty good alliance.
brandydoguk
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Posted: Monday, June 30, 2003 - 06:36 AM UTC
I once read a quote from a US Marine general on carrier equipment, it went something along the lines of : "The British gave us the steam catapult, the angled deck, and the mirror landing sight. Then they took them all away when they gave us the Harrier."
I bet the Americans did their fair share in getting the things to work though.
I bet the Americans did their fair share in getting the things to work though.
keenan
Member Since: October 16, 2002
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Posted: Monday, June 30, 2003 - 07:00 AM UTC
A little bit more info on the EMALS (Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System). Pretty cool stuff. More information than you'll ever need at the second link. But if your into physics and math it is pretty cool link...
http://www.ga.com/news/emals.html
http://www.lakehurst.navy.mil/nlweb/ieeerevc.pdf
Shaun
http://www.ga.com/news/emals.html
http://www.lakehurst.navy.mil/nlweb/ieeerevc.pdf
Shaun
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Monday, June 30, 2003 - 07:08 AM UTC
The magnetic vector charts are superb! (Like I know what I am looking at and reading)
thanks
DJ #:-) #:-)
thanks
DJ #:-) #:-)
Cob
Member Since: May 23, 2002
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Posted: Monday, June 30, 2003 - 09:53 AM UTC
I'll throw in the Dolittle Raid. B-25's launched off the Hornet against Tokyo shortly after Pearl Harbor. Didn't cause much real damage in Japan but the psychological effects on the Empire and morale boost in the states were tremendous. Also it was a perfect example of interservice cooperation at a time when the armed forces couldn't spell joint!
v/r,
Cob
v/r,
Cob
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 02:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I'll throw in the Dolittle Raid. B-25's launched off the Hornet against Tokyo shortly after Pearl Harbor. Didn't cause much real damage in Japan but the psychological effects on the Empire and morale boost in the states were tremendous. Also it was a perfect example of interservice cooperation at a time when the armed forces couldn't spell joint!
v/r,
Cob
COB--nice call. Truly risky mission. Doolittle richly earned his MOH.
DJ
ModlrMike
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Posted: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 03:39 AM UTC
Good call, Cob. In the same vein, I'd add the British operation against the Italian fleet at Taranto. Had they not succeeded, the Japanese might have arrived at a completely different strategy regarding Pearl Harbour.
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 09:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Good call, Cob. In the same vein, I'd add the British operation against the Italian fleet at Taranto. Had they not succeeded, the Japanese might have arrived at a completely different strategy regarding Pearl Harbour.
Now, there is a nice follow-up subject...Taranto. Can you give us some details? I think they attacked several Italian Battleships with their torpedo carrying bi planes. But, how many did they sink/cripple. Effects on Italian Navy?
thanks
DJ
ModlrMike
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Posted: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 11:51 AM UTC
Here's a synopsis of the action taken from the website below:
The cost in human life had been surprisingly light and nothing compared to some of the other great naval engagements of the war. The Royal Navy had lost two men killed and two more taken prisoner-of-war. The Italians had lost a total of 40 men; one on the Duilio, sixteen on the Conti di Cavour and twenty-three on the Littorio. The Littorio was to be out of action for five months, the Duilio for six months, and the Conti di Cavour was still being repaired when Italy surrendered. The Trento was out of commission for months from the damage of the single unexploded bomb. Perhaps as important as the physical damage done to the Italian warships was the psychological damage. Taranto, the main offensive base of the Royal italian Navy had been shown to be insecure. The day after the raid Supermarina ordered the Vittorio Veneto and the Giulio Cesare to sail north for the port of Naples, where they would be safer. They would also be so far away from the important sealanes as to pose almost no threat to the British. The Italian fleet did fight other actions against the British, the largest being at Cape Matapan, but the raid on Taranto effectively ended any hope the Italians had of actually turning the Mediterranean into the Mare Nostrum so beloved of Fascist propaganda. For the Royal Navy it had been a good night's work.
Website: http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/Alley/5443/tar.htm
The most important contribution this action made, to carrier warfare, in my opinion, was that it convinced the Japanese that their strategy was correct. The action proved that carrier based aircraft could successfully strike at a protected harbour. Taranto harbour was 70 feet deep and Pearl was only 40 feet. The Japanese flew thousands of practice missions in 40 foot harbours and coves as preparation for their attack. It is said that if any of the Japanese aircraft were able to get a bead on their target, they would get a hit, solely due to the amount of practice they had.
The cost in human life had been surprisingly light and nothing compared to some of the other great naval engagements of the war. The Royal Navy had lost two men killed and two more taken prisoner-of-war. The Italians had lost a total of 40 men; one on the Duilio, sixteen on the Conti di Cavour and twenty-three on the Littorio. The Littorio was to be out of action for five months, the Duilio for six months, and the Conti di Cavour was still being repaired when Italy surrendered. The Trento was out of commission for months from the damage of the single unexploded bomb. Perhaps as important as the physical damage done to the Italian warships was the psychological damage. Taranto, the main offensive base of the Royal italian Navy had been shown to be insecure. The day after the raid Supermarina ordered the Vittorio Veneto and the Giulio Cesare to sail north for the port of Naples, where they would be safer. They would also be so far away from the important sealanes as to pose almost no threat to the British. The Italian fleet did fight other actions against the British, the largest being at Cape Matapan, but the raid on Taranto effectively ended any hope the Italians had of actually turning the Mediterranean into the Mare Nostrum so beloved of Fascist propaganda. For the Royal Navy it had been a good night's work.
Website: http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/Alley/5443/tar.htm
The most important contribution this action made, to carrier warfare, in my opinion, was that it convinced the Japanese that their strategy was correct. The action proved that carrier based aircraft could successfully strike at a protected harbour. Taranto harbour was 70 feet deep and Pearl was only 40 feet. The Japanese flew thousands of practice missions in 40 foot harbours and coves as preparation for their attack. It is said that if any of the Japanese aircraft were able to get a bead on their target, they would get a hit, solely due to the amount of practice they had.
brandydoguk
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Posted: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 03:57 PM UTC
ModlrMike, didn't the Japanese have a superior type of torpedo which suited the shallower water in Pearl Harbour? I believe it was called the Long Lance. If I remember right it was thought that Pearl anchorage was too shallow for torpedo attack with the torpedoes in service with most countries at the time, as when air dropped they initially ran too deep.
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 11:17 PM UTC
Quoted Text
ModlrMike, didn't the Japanese have a superior type of torpedo which suited the shallower water in Pearl Harbour? I believe it was called the Long Lance. If I remember right it was thought that Pearl anchorage was too shallow for torpedo attack with the torpedoes in service with most countries at the time, as when air dropped they initially ran too deep.
Let me tag on to this question and ask "didn't the Japanese develop a bomb that was actually a projectile from a battleship to penetrate the decks?"
thanks
DJ
ModlrMike
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Posted: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 11:33 PM UTC
Quoted Text
ModlrMike, didn't the Japanese have a superior type of torpedo which suited the shallower water in Pearl Harbour?
I believe they did. My observation deals more with their tactics than technology. I think that had the British been repusled at Taranto, the Japanese might have altered their attack plans. I think the attack on Pearl would have gone ahead just the same, but with some differences.
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 06:25 AM UTC
No doubt about, the Japanese knew their enemy. The attack on Pearl Harbor is just about as perfect as you can get.
DJ
Ps-- that's is truly tragical
DJ
Ps-- that's is truly tragical
blaster76
Member Since: September 15, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 07:48 PM UTC
When I first read this question, the first thought that popped into my head was Taranto. It was this that inspired Yammamoto's Pearl Harbor concept. It would be the grandfather of all major carrier operations
brandydoguk
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Posted: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 10:44 PM UTC
It is ironic that the British came up with such a strategic plan as the Taranto attack. During the early part of the war they seemed not to grasp the best use for their carriers, indeed the two fleet carriers lost by 1940, Glorious and Courageous were sunk in circumstances which would have never have occured a year or two later. I guess in war the learning curve can be really steep.
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 07:20 AM UTC
Quoted Text
It is ironic that the British came up with such a strategic plan as the Taranto attack. During the early part of the war they seemed not to grasp the best use for their carriers, indeed the two fleet carriers lost by 1940, Glorious and Courageous were sunk in circumstances which would have never have occured a year or two later. I guess in war the learning curve can be really steep.
What happened?
brandydoguk
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Posted: Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 08:16 AM UTC
210cav the Glorious was used for ferrying aircraft to Norway and was sunk by the Scharnhorst whilst returning to Britain. Her aircraft were struck down in the hanger, RAF hurricanes were occupying the flightdeck and she had no means to defend herself. Courageous was lost on ASW ops, apparently she was supposed to draw u-boats on as a high value target and her aircraft and destroyer escort supposed to destroy them. She was sunk by U29.
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Friday, July 04, 2003 - 01:57 PM UTC
How about the capture of U-505 by the Guadalcoanl in June of 1944? Classic piece of seamanship.
brandydoguk
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Posted: Friday, July 04, 2003 - 10:16 PM UTC
Quoted Text
How about the capture of U-505 by the Guadalcoanl in June of 1944? Classic piece of seamanship.
I'm not familiar with that, could you fill me in?
Martin
210cav
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Posted: Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 12:49 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextHow about the capture of U-505 by the Guadalcoanl in June of 1944? Classic piece of seamanship.
I'm not familiar with that, could you fill me in?
Martin
Martin---we formed "Hunter Killer Groups" to hunt submarines in the Atlantic about mid-way in the war. The Guadalcanal was an escort carrier patrolling with several destroyer escorts off the Azores. The commander of the group was intent on capturing a submarine. They trained to place depth charges and surface gunfire on a submarine then board it when the crew abandoned her. On the 4th of June 1944, they spot U-505. Force her to surface then board her. This is the first time that a US man of war captures an enemy vessel on the high sea since the War of 1812 as I recall. A prize crew goes aboard, stops the demolition charges, shuts the sea cocks and removes the code books and machines. They then tow her back to Bermuda for evaluation. It seems somewhere I read that the British are furious over the whole incident. They captured several submarines and code machines in the first days of the war and are justifiably concerned that the Germans will now alter their codes. So, the entire episode is kept secret until several years after the war. I believe two or three Americans received the Medal of Honor for their bravery in going on board a sinking submarine ready to blow up at any second. Someone with an in-depth knowledge of USN in WW II may alter or fill in some balnks, but I think that pretty much what happened. There was movie recently produced based loosely on the capture.
DJ
brandydoguk
Member Since: October 04, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 01:00 AM UTC
DJ, I think I saw the film, was it U571 with Jon Bon Jovi cast in a small part? I didn't realise it was based on a true event. I will be surfing the net later to find out more about the actual event.
Many thanks
Martin
Many thanks
Martin
ModlrMike
Member Since: January 03, 2003
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Posted: Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 06:02 AM UTC
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 12:37 PM UTC
Mike--thanks. Nice find. Great story
DJ
DJ
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