History Club
Military history and past events only. Rants or inflamitory comments will be removed.
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Worst Defeat
210cav
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Posted: Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 08:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

How about Anzio? Or would that be more of a blunder by the higher ups?



Anzio! Now there was a stalemate of momumental proportions. Compounding the faulty decision making process were the blunders made after the break out when Clark disobeyed orders and split towards Rome rather than cutting off the German route of retreat.
GSPatton
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Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 08:44 AM UTC
As far as American defeats Custer at the Little Big Horn ranks right up there. Old Georgia and his 200 troopers hard charging towards the Hostiles camp. George calling to his men, "To Little Bighorn and Glory!" and then the rude awakening when 1000 -1500 warriors swarm out of the village and kick his *ss.

Yup - Little Bighorn. Worst Defeat by an American Military force.
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 09:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

As far as American defeats Custer at the Little Big Horn ranks right up there. Old Georgia and his 200 troopers hard charging towards the Hostiles camp. George calling to his men, "To Little Bighorn and Glory!" and then the rude awakening when 1000 -1500 warriors swarm out of the village and kick his *ss.

Yup - Little Bighorn. Worst Defeat by an American Military force.



Interesting. There is a great book on the Custer episode, "To Hell With Honor." It describes in detail the tremendous effects of personalities on the battlefield in the form of Major Reno and Captain Benteen. Their actions are remarkable as they directly and indirectly obstruct the realization of Custer's battleplan. I highly commend the book to any who are interested in reading this illuminating book on the Army's most written about military commander.
DJ
GSPatton
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Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 04:10 AM UTC
Evan Connells' book, "Son of the Morning Star" is an excellent historical document of how NOT to engage an enemy of unknown strength. Custer was not only defeated by the Indians but his 2 ranking officers, Reno and Benteen failed him. I have read quite a bit on Curley and find him a most complex character and not really what the media of his time or early historians portray.
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 04:29 AM UTC

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Evan Connells' book, "Son of the Morning Star" is an excellent historical document of how NOT to engage an enemy of unknown strength. Custer was not only defeated by the Indians but his 2 ranking officers, Reno and Benteen failed him. I have read quite a bit on Curley and find him a most complex character and not really what the media of his time or early historians portray.



If you can, refersh our collective thoughts on Major Reno. Seems to me that he was courts martialled for cowardism, but years (I'm talking like 1970+), one of his relatives petitioned the Army Board for the Correction of Military Records and got his courts martial thrown out.
thanks
DJ
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Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 04:34 AM UTC
Little Big Horn was a decisive defeat, but I really don't think it should be considered the worst. First, the number of men killed wasn't that great, only around 260. This looks less severe when coupled with the fact they were outnumbered 4 or 5 to one by a force with equal, in some cases superior, firepower. It would have been one of the greatest victories against the odds in US military history if Custer had won. If casualties suffered due to poor planning are the judging guidelines, than the battle at Cisterna during the Anzio campaign was far worse than the Little Big Horn. At Cisterna, the 1st Ranger Battalion was sent to lead an attack against what was supposed to be a thinly held portion of the German front. Instead, they found the staging area for three panzer and panzer grenadier divisions. Outnumbered and trapped in a canal which had been their main avenue of attack, the 1st Ranger Battalion fought for several hours before being overwhelmed by vastly superior numbers. Out of approximately 770 Rangers, only 6 made it back to Allied lines. The rest were either killed or captured.
As to Custer's decision to attack, he had done something similar before and believed he could do so again. In 1868 he attacked and defeated a much larger band of Natives at the Washita River. Granted, he attacked a mostly non-hostile band who had mistakenly been deemed a dangerous force, but they fought back and Custer beat them. He thought that he would have surprise on his side once again, but Reno squandered the opportunity by dismounting his troopers and attacking in a skirmish line instead of charging into the camp and trying to cause confusion and disorder among the ranks of the hostiles. Who knows what would have happened if Custer's plan had been executed properly. Stranger and more unexpected victories have been won on the battlefields of the world.
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 04:39 AM UTC
Ed--very nice point. Cisterna! I had the opportunity to visit that area during a trip to Italy last year. Absolutely amazing terrain. Deep gullies and fields. I can just imagine what it was like to be traversing that terrain at night and run into a huge German armored force. They ripped those guys up. True tragedy. Thanks for reminding us of what the sacrifice of the Infantry often entails.
DJ

PS--now, if we were still able to converse using the Current Forum, we could see implications for current military operations. Thus, we need to revive the Current Forum.